Which are the Two Towers?

[Cian]

Originally posted by Winch The note in the back of FoTR I last read from our local libarary definately said Cirith Ungol.

Are you sure? someone at another site claimed this ... but when this person checked it turned out he/she had mis-remembered (for Minas Morgul). I'm not saying you are mistaken but that's just why I ask, you understand ...

... in any case Minas Morgul was the tower in the FOTR note published when Tolkien was alive.

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[Cian]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion: While I was looking around for a good wordlist I found some rather interesting glossarys that showed that quenya is very much like sindarin, king is Aran in both languages for example.

The exiled Noldor and the Sindar could not understand one another at first, as their languages had indeed become too divergent during their long seperation ... but that said, the Elvish languages ultimately trace back historically of course ~ Sindarin was the most prominent descendant of Common Telerin, Common Telerin itself branching off from Common Eldarin <> the ancestor of Quenya.

Aran happens to be the same vocabulary word as the 'history' worked out, but the word occurs in different languages of course (also note Q. plural arani vrs S. erain).

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[Winch]

Originally posted by Cian
Are you sure? someone at another site claimed this ... but when this person checked it turned out he/she had mis-remembered (for Minas Morgul). I'm not saying you are mistaken but that's just why I ask, you understand ...

... in any case Minas Morgul was the tower in the FOTR note published when Tolkien was alive.

¤

I'll have to go to the library and check that copy again. It was a couple of weeks ago I read it. I'm pretty sure that's what it said. Hope that copy is not out now. I'll let you know after I see it again.

 

[Narsil]

Missing facts

I've read the complete thread and acknowledge what JRRT had to say.

Some missing facts.

a) There are 6 towers that are significant in the book "Osgiliath" being the missing one. Not all of them were a direct part of the story, but they all contributed.

b) I think all towers (with the possible exception of Barad-Dur) were built by Isildur and his descendants in the early days of the Third Age. Minas Ithil/Morgul was captured by the Witch King aka the chief Nazgul and was the centre of his "kingdom". This has only passing significance to the main characters so can be eliminated as one of the "Two".

c) As is pointed out later in the thread, the Fourth Book ends with Frodo's capture and imprisonment in Cirith Ungol. So CU would also have to be elminated. It only becomes a part of the story in the final volume of the trilogy.

Although the film clearly identifies Barad-Dur and Orthanc as the "Two", it seems to me that the middle book paints the picture of the forces of Good being focused in Minas Tirith and the story of Rohan eventually realising that the war will only be won by joining forces with Gondor in MT. Their story in the middle volume is finishing local business and coming to that final conclusion.

On the other hand we have the "distraction" of Saruman's capture by Sauron. He is delusional to think that even if he got his hands on the Ring, the ultimate controller would not still be Sauron. He is a thorn in the sides of the forces of Good and needs to be dealt with. But in the geo-politics of the Third Age, Saruman is a side-story.

The "Two Towers" (in the weltanschauung of the whole trilogy) have to be Minas Tirith and Barad-Dur.

 

[morello13]

I don't if everybodys' FotR has this but at the end mine says the next book is entitiled the two towers as it refers to Orthanc and Minas Morgul where the most revelant things occur.

PJ would have you believe it is Orthanc and Bara-Dur as Saruman is looking into the Palantir and says the two towers orthanc and bara-dur united will rule this Middle Earth.

 

[BlackCaptain]

What towers are we talking about?

I always believed that the Two Towers in the book were the towers of Orthanc and Barad-Dur. But at the end of my Fellowship book it sais:

The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL that gaurds the secret entrance into Mordor; ...

Are these the REAL 2 towers?

 

[Isenho]

yeah, as what i think. Barad-dur didnt play that big of a part in TTT. it played nothing almost!

 

[BlackCaptain]

The movie really swayed my final decision, cuz i didnt think that the movie could get the info wrong. at least info this important! So i just decided to go with Barad Dur being the second. My very first of all ideas was that the towers were Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. I guess i my first guess was closer...

 

[Niniel]

Oh please, not this discussion again...
Check this thread: http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?threadid=3701
Anyway, I still think it's Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, since that is what JRRT himself said.

 

[BlackCaptain]

It appears as though Tolkien shouldve picked a better title for his second book.

Ive looked over everything, and I seem to think that the 2 towers are either Orthanc and Morgul, ( I like how someone said that the Nazgul flies between them ) or Minas Tirith and Minis Morgul. Those 2 are the only actual pairs in the books. And Osgiliath, being the representation of the struggle between the two when it is attacked.

But im starting to really like the idea of Orthanc and Minas Morgul. They are the two towers that Sauron uses to launch attacks on everyone. Their the two towers that are puppets of Sauron. And even though Cirith Ungol may seem right, it is just a pass that Frodo and Sam go through, and i dont think it is important enough in the big picture as Morgul and Orthanc are. Minas Morgul and Orthanc are the Towers that each book is centered around (kind of) and they are the 2 most important towers to Sauron, save Barad-Dur itself.

 

[LordOfMoria]

you know, it could ne both Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul and then Orthanc and Barad Dur. maybe it kinda co implies the two towers off each side!!!

 

[greypilgrim]

Nada. It's Orthanc and Minas Morgul "The Tower of Sorcery", "The Tower of Isengard". And there's this, events in books 3 and 4 take place at these two Towers. respectively.

 

[LordOfMoria]

ah i always thought it was barad dur.

 

[Mablung]

I think that Orthanc and Barad Dur were the Two Towers because it was referring to the two kingdoms the towers lead.

 

[LordOfMoria]

Is it writen down? specifically did Tolkien write it? Or are we just assuming it based on our knowlage of it?

 

[Mithlond]

greypilgrim: No events that we know of ever took place first hand within Minas Morgul in books 3 and 4. Frodo was taken to the tower of Cirith Ungol, which is a seperate tower.

I've always believed the two towers refered to Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. Tolkien even states in the letters that he intended these to be the two towers, as the two story threads take place around them.
But i think he later changed his mind, making them Orthanc and Minas Morgul, as the cover he drew for one of the two towers editions depicts a Nazgul flying between these two towers.
Click here for the image.
This was the final cover design by Tolkien, and as you can see, there is Minas Morgul on the left with the moon above and below it (the tower of the moon, Minas Ithil) and on the right we have Orthanc, with the white hand of Saruman.

 

[Cian]

Bah. I don't care what Jackson, or any movie says

As posted: "The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL that gaurds the secret entrance into Mordor; ..." FOTR

According to Wayne Hammond's bibliography, JRRT saw and approved this before it was published (Tolkien was alive when it was published in any case) ... also it makes sense, as these are the same towers that Tolkien (ultimately) depicted for the cover.

 

[greypilgrim]

Mithlond -Cool picture! The Tower on the left is obviously Minas Morgul (formerly Minas Ithil) "Tower of the Rising Moon" and the other is Orthanc, which means "Mount Fang", and "the Cunning Mind".

From "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol".......

"....Upon the further side, some way within the valley's arms, high on a rocky seat upon the black knees of the Ephel Duath, stood the walls and tower of Minas Morgul. All was dark about it, earth and sky, but it was lit with light. Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the marbled walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the lightn of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing. In the walls and tower windows showed, like countless black holes looking inward into emptiness; but the topmost course of the tower revolved slowly, first one way and then the other, a huge ghostly head leering into the night."

Then the three pass the bridge and go up the path, and while they rest there is a tumult in the earth and a great red flash in the east, then came a great crack of thunder:

"And Minas Morgul answered. There was a flare of livid lightnings: forks of blue flame springing up from the tower and from the encircling hills into the sullen clouds. The earth groaned; and out of the city there came a cry. Mingled with harsh high voices as of birds of prey, and the shrill neighing of horses wild with rage and fear, there came a rending screech, shivering, rising swiftly to a piercing pitch beyond the range of hearing............And out of the gate an army came.........Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light............Here indeed was the haggard king whose cold hand had smitten down the Ringbearer with his deadly knife."

Then they stop and he tries to sense Frodo, then move on again, to war with Gondor.
Isn't that a major event in TTT? I think this must be the other "Tower" in the title.

 

[lightingstrike]

I know that I really shouldn't post this in the book section, but I think I need to. To those of you who do not have the DVD and don't think it is Barad-du and Orthanc go to the nearest Blockbuster and rent FoTR. You don't even have to watch the movie, just go directly to the special features disc and choose, Two Towers preview. In it PJ specificaly says that the title "The Two Towers" refers to Barad-du and Orthanc. To those of you who already knew that, Good job

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Mithlond said...

I've always believed the two towers refered to Orthanc and Cirith Ungol

Errr... Mithlond, no offense but Cirith Ungol was not even a tower. It was a pass, and an evil one at that. Yes there were many stairs and tunnels but they were all inside the cliffs of Mordor (Emyn Lythien? I think its close to that...) We know they were inside a mountain for Shelob hated light just like her mother, Ungoliant. Minas Morgul was an interesting part of the book, but it is not one of the Two Towers for it was under the sway of Barad-dur. Thus, Barad-dur and Orthanc were the Two Towers for they were the prominent ones in Middle Earth at the time.