Which Middle-earth character has seen the most wars?

[Elthir]

My carefully-edited "quote" regarding the Edain that you are answering (#52) is designed to match both versions, so no "if" required, no warnings needed!

Both versions, meaning what two texts? If I may ask.

Perhaps it would help, if you could name a few of the individual men who lived long enough to do this.

The Highlander Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod?

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Perhaps it would help, if you could name a few of the individual men who lived long enough to do this.

Would Melkor military project restricted to generations? If that's not so, I think it doesn't matter how short these human personnel live.🤔 🤔

 

[m4r35n357]

Both versions, meaning what two texts? If I may ask.

The QS you mentioned in #53, and the published Silmarillion.

 

[Elthir]

The QS you mentioned in #53, and the published Silmarillion.

Okay. So one text written by Tolkien, and the same one I was speaking about when I wrote . . .

"So if we are going to take this pre-Lord of the Rings version of the end of QS as updated in full (again noting Christopher Tolkien's warning about doing that, simply due to some later cursory corrections) . . ."

 

[m4r35n357]

Okay. So one text written by Tolkien, and the same one I was speaking about when I wrote . . .

"So if we are going to take this pre-Lord of the Rings version of the end of QS as updated in full (again noting Christopher Tolkien's warning about doing that, simply due to some later cursory corrections) . . ."

I think you mean "one text written by JRRT and edited by his Son, and the same one I was speaking about when I wrote . . ., written by JRRT".

 

[Elthir]

I think you mean "one text written by JRRT and edited by his Son, and the same one I was speaking about when I wrote . . ., written by JRRT".

No I meant the text written by JRRT.

A warning about the edited version would be obvious: it's been edited!

 

[m4r35n357]

No I meant the text written by JRRT.

A warning about the edited version would be obvious: it's been edited!

Edited by Christopher to remove just the phrase "and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East". Giving the impression that the Noldor either were not invited, or refused to fight.

I think we've been here before . . .

 

[Olorgando]

I think we've been here before . . .

Yup! 😁

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The Highlander Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod?

 

[Olorgando]

The Highlander Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod?

Nah. He's Sixth and / or Seventh Age. 😜

 

[Elthir]

I yam immortal . . . sorta!

 

[Elthir]

Been reading the end of AB2, the end of QS (HOME V) and the TOYs again.

Having another think about this "March to the North" in any case . . . due to a certain new thread about the Dagor Dagorath War of Wrath!

 

[m4r35n357]

Been reading the end of AB2, the end of QS (HOME V) and the TOYs again.

Having another think about this "March to the North" in any case . . . due to a certain new thread about the Dagor Dagorath War of Wrath!

I saw your idea in my email notification I have been waiting for the NoME dust to settle, so no need to interrupt that for the time being. However I will give a few hints to my thoughts (which are not yet crystallized). File this one for later discussion if you wish.

In my mind there is no movement within Beleriand that qualifies as a "long march to the North". Eglorest is just not that far away from Dor-na-Fauglith.

I think the "long march to the North" might be a hangover from the original "faring forth" of the Lost Tales! If you look at 17 & 18 in the Qenta Noldorinwa, you find that Earendel "guided" the host northwards, but they would not "suffer him to return again", and built Elwing's tower "upon the confines of the outer world in the Northern regions of the Sundering Seas" (17 version II). Then, presumably, they (under Fionwe) crossed from the North, most probably at the latitude of Drengist, together with the more southerly landing at Eglorest by Ingwiel.

In the QS, as well as the published one, this notion of the "march to the North" still happens before the host "came out of the West", then Fionwe summons all Elves & Men. In the published Silmarillion CT kept the first sentence and deleted the second. It would have been less mysterious if he had kept the summons and deleted the (now obsolete?) reference to the "march to the North"

As I said, I understand if you want to deal with NoME first!

 

[Elthir]

In the QS, as well as the published one, this notion of the "march to the North" still happens before the host "came out of the West", then Fionwe summons all Elves & Men.

This is actually the imperfectness (with QS) that I referred to in (the final version) of my now deleted post, and why I deleted, wanting to give the matter more thought.

Ultimately I listened to that Treebeard "don't be hasty" voice

In my mind there is no movement within Beleriand that qualifies as a "long march to the North". Eglorest is just not that far away from Dor-na-Fauglith.

To save me some time from looking, as you have it quoted here, where is the "long" (part of the) march description? And how do you interpret the revision to QN 17 (II) referred to in note 20 ["Earendil was their guide . . ." > "In those days the ship of Earendil was drawn by the Gods . . ." and so on].

And likewise (about a possible later discussion), obviously you don't have to respond now, soon, or at any point actually. I'm not sure if NOME is going to add anything new here, but indeed it's drawing me away from this and other matters . . .

. . . along with the fact that I want to read Dune again before seeing the film, and other stuff outside of Tolkien (outside Tolkien? gasp!)

 

[m4r35n357]

To save me some time from looking, as you have it quoted here, where is the "long" (part of the) march description?

Sorry, that is an error of mine, so one of my arguments is gone!

BTW there is a new post here that addresses thing form a different starting point . . . if you haven't read it you might want to have a look?

Threre, kept it minimal for now

 

[Elthir]

Incidentally, instead of reading GNOME you have me reading "faring forth" references!

And since I can't come up with a good reason as to why the "Hithlum summoning" vanishes, I also can't come up with a good reason to necessarily hold to the meaning suggested by the constructed version!

My opinion of the "summonings" so far is that AB1 and AB2 are "a tad better" at least in the sense that these are more vague "geographically speaking" -- but even if CJRT himself thought so, I can't see that as a good reason for knocking out the Hithlum version, especially as we are technically in the QS tradition in any case.

All I can think of is this (so far): that maybe Christopher Tolkien was being ultra-conservative here, in a sense, and decided that the updated Tale of Years -- given the post-Lord of the Rings date (and his own statement about the conclusion to QS as far as being fully updated) -- should be echoed . . .

. . . but the obvious response here is that the TOYs, very arguably, merely leaves out the summoning due to brevity! Anyway, another part of my wonderings . . .

( . . . ) In the QS, as well as the published one, this notion of the "march to the North" still happens before the host "came out of the West", then Fionwe summons all Elves & Men.

While I agree it seems like that's the scenario here . . .

Is it at least possible that we have something like: little is said of the march [for the given reasons] but here's what we know [according to QS]. For a made up and admittedly imperfect example: "Little is said of Bill's trip to Canada. No one went with him, except his wife Jill, and she only told her brother Phil about it. But at last Bill bought his new car and crossed the Canadian border . . ."

And if you hear/read Phil's account, as he heard it from Jill, we might be able to add that Bill killed an orc (let's call him Swill), along the way, around the "town" of Eglarest.

Okay, you're probably not going to buy that.

In any case I could use some more convincing about why the Narrator feels the need to mention that little is said of the march to the North, if the march is in Aman with no enemies even expected. I assume this is to be found in your Faring Forth (hangover) argument, concerning which I'm not trying to rush, so whenever.

And I guess one could say it just to say it.

And little is known of Bill's packing his suitcase for Canada too

Then again, if your argument convinces me, I shall regret this suitcase joke!

 

[m4r35n357]

Incidentally, instead of reading GNOME you have me reading "faring forth" references!

You're welcome!

And since I can't come up with a good reason as to why the "Hithlum summoning" vanishes, I also can't come up with a good reason to necessarily hold to the meaning suggested by the constructed version!

My opinion of the "summonings" so far is that AB1 and AB2 are "a tad better" at least in the sense that these are more vague "geographically speaking" -- but even if CJRT himself thought so, I can't see that as a good reason for knocking out the Hithlum version, especially as we are technically in the QS tradition in any case.

All I can think of is this (so far): that maybe Christopher Tolkien was being ultra-conservative here, in a sense, and decided that the updated Tale of Years -- given the post-Lord of the Rings date (and his own statement about the conclusion to QS as far as being fully updated) -- should be echoed . . .

I agree, particularly as he did not have the Later Annals at that time. These would have bolstered his confidence dealing with the ending of the Silmarillion I think.

Is it at least possible that we have something like: little is said of the march [for the given reasons] but here's what we know [according to QS]. For a made up and admittedly imperfect example: "Little is said of Bill's trip to Canada. No one went with him, except his wife Jill, and she only told her brother Phil about it. But at last Bill bought his new car and crossed the Canadian border . . ."

Yep, that is how I read it in the first place, so, perfectly reasonable

In any case I could use some more convincing about why the Narrator feels the need to mention that little is said of the march to the North, if the march is in Aman with no enemies even expected. I assume this is to be found in your Faring Forth (hangover) argument, concerning which I'm not trying to rush, so whenever.

It reads like a sentence that demands its own explanation, but does not give one. As an editor, I would have been very tempted to drop it for clarity, although it sounds great
The Faring forth just seemed to me like an example of something, a "theme", that was a bit deal in the LT, was watered down in the QN, and left as a vestigial stump in the QS (but might have been re-interpreted and expanded later).

hen again, if your argument convinces me, I shall regret this suitcase joke!

Well let's see if even I remain convinced (still can't see any alternative ATM though).

 

[Elthir]

You're welcome!

LOL. Okay that was good.

I don't recall focusing on this edit before. Anyway, I will say that there's a part of me that wanted "England" to remain, following the Wrathy War.

Yep, that is how I read it in the first place, so, perfectly reasonable

With the wink I'm not quite sure what this means!

 

[m4r35n357]

I don't recall focusing on this edit before. Anyway, I will say that there's a part of me that wanted "England" to remain, following the Wrathy War.

The "great isles"? 1937 Eldanyare introduces this idea, see HoME 5, updated ending to QS, paragraph 26.

"In those days there was a great building of ships upon the
shores of the Western Sea, and especially upon the great isles
which, in the disruption of the northern world, were fashioned of
ancient Beleriand."

(the passage survives into QSII (Home 11) with removal of the single word "especially". But most of it, including the "great isles", is removed in the published version).

With the wink I'm not quite sure what this means!

The same as without. I'm a bit free with those things out of paranoia of being misunderstood!

 

[Elthir]

The "great isles"?

I was thinking more of that tantalizing " . . . and especially in the western isles and in the Land of Leithien."

Although I might be attaching a holdover type significance to this!

The same as without. I'm a bit free with those things out of paranoia of being misunderstood!

Okay. Hmm. Maybe I'm just confused here, but . . .

. . . did I misunderstand your reading of QS (HOME V) that, due to the sentence order (or whatever),
the march to the North must come before Eonwe comes up out of the West (and thus be in Aman)?