Who controls the Watcher in the Water?

By IluinI see no evidence of The Watcher here; and it is not so clear-cut. When speaking about “The Watcher” specifically; he only refers to Orcs:

‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’
‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’

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I don't understand your logic here, Iluin. Gandalf is answering the question about the Watcher in the Water. He says that there are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.

Now Gandalf's words tell us two things...

1) His phrase "there are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." are in direct correlation to the discussion of the Watcher

2) These 'older and fouler things' are NOT talking about Orcs but other things that are more older and more foul THAN the orcs are.

I don't see at all how the reference here is only talking about Orcs. It is talking about things 'other than' Orcs, not Orcs themselves. As the Orcs are foul and old, there are things that are more older and fouler...like the Watcher that was the starter of this conversation to begin with.

This is why I can't understand why there needs to even be clarification on this area concerning the Watcher.

Well, of course I realize that. That particular quote happens to be directly linked to The Watcher. But my other quote is not. He can be talking about any creepy crawler (first quote). There was a Balrog down there; there could be old Morgoth abominations that fled; who knows. It seems this has strayed a bit from what we were originally talking about (which now I can’t even remember). At any rate; it was a “thing”; and whatever it was, or whether it was older than Sauron will never be known. I just find it fun to kick around some amusing ideas; but I see no reason to debate about something neither of us can ever prove. I like to think of Bombadil and Goldberry as being Aule and Yavanna disguised. Are they; who knows, and who cares. But it’s still fun playing around with the idea. What about the "Silent Watchers"; the triple-bodied, vulture-headed creatures carved out of stone at Cirith Ungol? Were they carved in the likeness of one of those "Watchers in the Water"? Who knows; but I like the idea. No one can win a debate when the only thing being debated is our own imaginations. So I’m sticking with my theory; it’s an early, fouled up attempt at breeding a dragon; and it either escaped, or was shunned by it’s breeder Morgoth (those breeders are picky when it comes to pedigree) .

Okay...Now I get what it is going on.

You're saying that the Watcher in the water is compared to Orcs, not to Sauron as in the other quote. I understand now. I couldn't figure out why you were seemingly saying that the second quote of being 'older and fouler' was speaking about Orcs being 'older and fouler'.

My bad...pay attention Thorin.

However considering that Orcs were around since Morgoth's time, I would venture to suggest that the Watcher has been around for many long ages as well and that Gandalf's earlier comment about things in the earth being older than he could also apply to the Watcher as well as to the Balrog and other nasties in ME.

We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into the dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

I see no evidence of The Watcher here; and it is not so clear-cut. When speaking about “The Watcher” specifically; he only refers to Orcs:

‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’
‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’

Well, you need to put EVERYTHING together. Right before 'There are older & fouler things..':

'Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains.'

Now, common sense (and the text) tells you right here in black & white (green & white?) that The Watcher came from 'under the mountains' where there are older & fouler things than orcs - granted, but also where there are nameless things older than Sauron - if this isn't proof.....

The FACT is that The Watcher came from under the mountains where the 'nameless things' were/are, regardless of Gandalf's guess at their age & choice of comparison to orcs or Sauron.
You must also consider that at the Hollin Gate, Gandalf had not yet been down into the Abyss & tunnels beneath Khazad-Dum & was therefore speculating 'older than orcs' whereas 'after falling, he'd seen the nameless things, so he could make a more educated guess of their age, hence 'older than Sauron'.....

You're placing your entire arguement on Gandalf saying 'older than Orcs' in speculation versus 'older than Sauron (he)' again in speculation. That's just the semantics of Gandalf's phrase.....


Come on, give up the ghost.

'

Well, Bucky; I think you missed the point of the entire conversation (especially the part regarding imagination). You do understand (I hope) at least "the concept" of what is known as "a sense of humor". Go back and fully re-read the "context" of the previous posts .

Musta missed it.....

I can see through a brick wall in time though.

I like the idea of Melkor being far-away imprisoned but still being able to somewhat guide his oldest and foulest creatures a bit Not saying it's what happened, just fantasizing, like if Melkor decided he wanted the ring for the watcher. What would happen then? Tentacle lord? (anyone played day of the tentacle?)

Hi, I'm new to the forums, thought this sounded interesting, my opinion follows:
I believe that it could have possibly have been the ring, but I don't think the Watcher would necessarily become a sort of "Dark Lord". from what I've seen, the ring tries to be with the stronger party. When Deagol found it, the ring wanted to be with Smeagol, who was stronger and faster. Boromir was drawn to the ring because he was more powerful than Frodo, and he was the son of the Steward. Perhaps the Watcher was drawn because he was simply stronger than Frodo. Once again, open to criticism.

That theory is interesting, but there are a few flaws from where I stand:

-was Boromir stronger than Aragorn? Probably physically but the "son of the Steward" would be much outweighed by Aragorn's claim to the throne, and direct lineage from Isildur. So why wasn't Aragorn drawn?

-The strength of the Watcher? sure, but then the Balrog wasn't going directly after Frodo. And neither it seems, was the Watcher, but it was protecting its territory. After all it only attacked when it was disturbed...read on (from 'A Journey In The Dark'):

"...As Sam, the last of the Company, led Bill up on to the dry ground on the far side, there came a soft sound: a swish, followed by a plop, as if a fish had disturbed the still surface of the water. Turning quickly they saw ripples, black-edged with shadow in the waning light...
...[Boromir] stooped and picking up a large stone cast it far into the dark water.
The stone vanished with a soft slap; but at the same instant there was a swish and a bubble..."

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So I do not think it attacked because of its greater strength. But, the next quote from the same chapter helps:

"...[Gandalf] did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the company..."

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So what does that leave us with? Well it suggests to me it was drawn by the ring, and here I think is what happens.


Those with a more corrupt heart are drawn to the ring, not necessarily doing Sauron's will. A few arguments for this theory:

• Sauron's servants are always drawn to the Ring, be they Nazgul or Orc, although this does not prove the Watcher is under Sauron's control.
• Smeagol: He was inquisitive as a youth, and his thirst for knowledge was his undoing. He was the more "evil" of him and Deagol, and so the ring was drawn to him.
• Isildur: The ring betrayed him, slipping from his finger in the River and allowing him to be killed.
• Frodo offered the Ring to Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn and Faramir who all said no due to their wisdom.
• Boromir was always desiring the ring's power, and this lust led to his demise to an extent.
• Saruman too desired power and was declined.
• Let us not forget that the Ring had no power over Bombadil, inferring it has power over others. Gandalf and Aragorn knew it wished to be found, so maybe through Sauron's will within the Ring it had some control over nearby minds. Isildur "...had not the strength to bend it to his will..." (Unfinished Tales) and so he could not command it. If it had power, it could have "seen" those with more corruption in their hearts and used them for its own purpose.

In conclusion, the Ring's power drew the Watcher to Frodo, not out of superior strength, but it was Sauron's will. I still do not think Suaron commanded the Watcher though. It was just an "innocent" bystander.

Welcome to TTF by the way dacman!

Well, Gandalf clearly DOES think that the Watcher in thew Water went after Frodo first if you recall.......

The Balrog, who knows?

I think it is noteworthy that the Balrog allowed Balin & Company to remain in Moria for 5 years without attacking them though.
Durin's Bane also stays at the East-Gate during the final battle of the Dwarf & Goblin war & does not get involved despite watching (Dain Ironfoot sees him).
Why then go after the Fellowship immediately?

One can assume the power of the Ring drew him.


As far as drawing the 'strongest' party, I think Galadriel states clearly the Ring tempts everybody......

Some resist, some don't.
Some resist longer and then give in like Boromir or Frodo while others like Smeagle give in at once.

Noldor_returned said:

That theory is interesting, but there are a few flaws from where I stand:

-was Boromir stronger than Aragorn? Probably physically but the "son of the Steward" would be much outweighed by Aragorn's claim to the throne, and direct lineage from Isildur. So why wasn't Aragorn drawn?

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I don't see that Aragorn wasn't drawn - we see, though, that he does not succumb to any such longing if it existed. That, however, could be explained through strength-of-spirit and determination. Cf. his, with the added weight of rightful ownership, can go one-on-one with Sauron through the Palantir and NOT succumb to despair.

Isildur was in a very vulnerable position, having just lost his father - he also wasn't aware of the nature of the Ring. So even if one wanted to make the point and argue that Isildur succumbed, I think it doesn't bear transferring to Aragorn.

But I am not sure the "strength" argument is necessary. Clearly, even for the Ring, the best laid plans don't always pan out. It might well be that the Watcher was somehow drawn to the Ring while not vice versa...

Noldor_returned said:

The strength of the Watcher? sure, but then the Balrog wasn't going directly after Frodo.

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I can accept the theory that the Balrog was drawn by the Ring. Note, Noldor, that the Balrog went after the fellowship. He couldn't go directly after Frodo because they were in the mines and he couldn't have appeared out of thin air (or could he have?). But still he was going to attack the fellowship and it was only Gandalf that stopped him.
And Bucky pointed out, Durin's Bane didn't interfere in Dwarves' deeds and just remained silent.

Bucky said:

The Balrog, who knows?

I think it is noteworthy that the Balrog allowed Balin & Company to remain in Moria for 5 years without attacking them though.
Durin's Bane also stays at the East-Gate during the final battle of the Dwarf & Goblin war & does not get involved despite watching (Dain Ironfoot sees him).
Why then go after the Fellowship immediately?

One can assume the power of the Ring drew him.

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Bucky said:

I think it is noteworthy that the Balrog allowed Balin & Company to remain in Moria for 5 years without attacking them though.
Durin's Bane also stays at the East-Gate during the final battle of the Dwarf & Goblin war & does not get involved despite watching (Dain Ironfoot sees him).
Why then go after the Fellowship immediately?

One can assume the power of the Ring drew him.

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I quite agree with this theory. The Ring draws those of evil intent, such as the Watcher and the Balrog and of course the Nazgul. Why did the Watcher attack Frodo specifically, and then why didn't the Balrog?

I think the Watcher was in much closer proximity to Frodo and had the opportunity to touch him first. In this the ring drew the Watcher to the bearer, thus Frodo.

With the Balrog, the ring has drawn it out but it is not allowed to get close enough to the whole Fellowship to make an attempt on Frodo. Gandalf intervenes before the Balrog can attack any individual member of the Fellowship. I think, if the Balrog had the opportunity it would have gone for Frodo first.

Tyelkormo: Good point, Aragorn was drawn, but he was wise enough to know that he should avoid it. I think that is another difference between him and Boromir. Maybe, if he had continued travelling with Frodo he might have been more drawn? I highly doubt that though, because Faramir too said he would not take the Ring, even if he found it lying by the road. If he knew not to take the Ring, then surely Aragorn too could have resisted temptation. This is all speculation of course, but the Ring clearly had less impact on Aragorn than it did on Boromir, despite Aragorn spending more time around it. Aragorn even said if Strider wanted it, there was nothing stopping him from taking it from four hobbits, but he knew better than that. So obviously mind power has something to do with it, as well as intent.

Which brings me back to the Watcher. Its name itself implies it has a strong will and is a guardian of sorts, and then its intent is not good, allowing it to pursue the Ring. The Balrog is a different matter, although similar conditions apply.

Well. (sniff!)
There are certainly a number of threads here on this subject. This one answered some of my questions. Particularly one. I wondered if the Watcher had always been there, but just never acted before.
Apparently not. This "Bucky" in his post above notes

Bucky said:

'Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains.'

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This is Gandalf, in Fellowship of the Ring, book 2, chapter 4, a journey in the dark. Its clear the Watcher wasn't always there, so that at least is answered. (sniff.)
Now the question is how, why, and when did it creep, or get driven, out? Could it have been driven out by the Balrog when it fled there? Or does that fit with the timeline when that back door was in more constant use? Would the Watcher, if a maia, be afraid of a balrog? This was a pretty powerful balrog to withstand Gandalf.
Or maybe the power of the ring drew it? But when? When it was first found, or as its power grew? Didn't Tolkien know we want things all wrapped up in nice tidy packages with cute bows on them? If I had him here, I'd beat him with my umbrella (sniff.)

AHA. Ent sees @Klaatu recently released another one from The Great Halls of Speculation.

Yes, The Watcher is indeed enigmatic. Yet Tolkien included it for some very specific, if very deep, reasons Ent believes. (It would be included in Ent's Tolkien's Characters book if he ever got it done, and also MAY have a place in the current book, Tolkien's Secret Fire: Middle-earth's Moral and Religious Elements.

@Klaatu, please be sure this gets refiled in the appropriate spot, so Ent can pull it out again when the time comes.

Thanks.

I think the watcher is not controlled by anyone.

The reason why it went for Frodo is the malice of the ring attracting it.

Why would Sauron or Saruman want the watcher to eat Frodo with the ring? Sauron might not have known they were in Moria but Saruman did, I find it strange he never tried to catch them there and take the ring.

In Moria, the fellowship faced enemies that were attracted by the ring but acting on their own accord, the Balrog, the orcs.

Ricardo said:

I think the watcher is not controlled by anyone.

The reason why it went for Frodo is the malice of the ring attracting it.

Why would Sauron or Saruman want the watcher to eat Frodo with the ring? Sauron might not have known they were in Moria but Saruman did, I find it strange he never tried to catch them there and take the ring.

In Moria, the fellowship faced enemies that were attracted by the ring but acting on their own accord, the Balrog, the orcs.

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Good points all.
Regarding Saruman not taking advantage of the Fellowship while they were in the mines...
Saruman (like Gandalf) was a Maia. He may have had an inkling (e.g some limited clairvoyance) that the Fellowship would make it through the mines.
He probably didn't see/sense Gandalf's fall.
Easier (and less risky) to wait and have his Uruk-hai bring him the Ring.
(Ancient ME proverb: Whenever possible make the other guy come to you. 😄)
Just my 2 cents of mithril . . .

Deimos said:

Good points all.
Regarding Saruman not taking advantage of the Fellowship while they were in the mines...
Saruman (like Gandalf) was a Maia. He may have had an inkling (e.g some limited clairvoyance) that the Fellowship would make it through the mines.
He probably didn't see/sense Gandalf's fall.
Easier (and less risky) to wait and have his Uruk-hai bring him the Ring.
(Ancient ME proverb: Whenever possible make the other guy come to you. 😄)
Just my 2 cents of mithril . . .

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yes, those are good points to regarding Saruman. And we should not assume he would make the right choice.

Saruman did know that if they couldn't go through Caradhras, the only ways were at the south of the mountains (near Isengard) or Moria. He did not know that Gandalf had fallen, but this was Gandalf the Gray, who Saruman had already overpowered.

Trusting on the orcs and uruk-hai to bring him the ring was probably very foolish.

But i think the main reason why he didn't make a move was fear of Sauron. If he has tried to get the ring and failed, Sauron would have known that Saruman knew where the ring was and didn't tell him, that could have been very dangerous for Saruman.

Ricardo said:

yes, those are good points to regarding Saruman. And we should not assume he would make the right choice.

Saruman did know that if they couldn't go through Caradhras, the only ways were at the south of the mountains (near Isengard) or Moria. He did not know that Gandalf had fallen, but this was Gandalf the Gray, who Saruman had already overpowered.

Trusting on the orcs and uruk-hai to bring him the ring was probably very foolish.

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As he discovered . . . . those cursed horse-boys derailed everything 😆
But yes, somehow Sauron got wind of what Saruman had sent his Orcs to find and bring back.
To wit, there was that Uruk-hai vs Mordor orcs confrontation on the way to Isengard

Ricardo said:

But i think the main reason why he didn't make a move was fear of Sauron. If he has tried to get the ring and failed, Sauron would have known that Saruman knew where the ring was and didn't tell him, that could have been very dangerous for Saruman.

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Another excellent point (that I had not considered).

Well. (sniff.) I've thought about the watcher ever since Frodo talked about it when he was Mayor for a short while.
As far as who controls it, I've never thought about that part. I always just thought it was useful as a back gate guard, like Shelob was for Sauron. There's plenty of evil in Middle-earth from Morgoth without need for it all to be controlled by somebody. But it probably does mean something that Gandalf remarks about it going after Frodo. (If it would have gotten him, I might have gotten Bag End sooner. (sniff.)) I suppose its worth thinking about why it went after Frodo. Where's my umbrella. I think better when I'm holding my umbrella.