Who '💀killed' the Witch King?

[Inderjit S]

Tolkien himself commented that there were quite a few anamolies even after the revision.

What were the Nazgul doing in the Last Alliance-they managed to escape from the battle, with a remnant of Sauron's forces, where were they? Surely they took some part in one of the battles, or in the defence of Barad-dur-surely people shot arrows at them there, and they remained unscathed? Plus they were afraid of the Numenorean host under Ar-Pharazon-they obviously though they weren't invincible!

 

[Helcaraxë]

If indeed the Nazgul were protected by some sort of armor that made it invulnerable to arrows, there is no reason Gandalf would know about it. When he says that they cannot be slain with arrows, he means they themselves cannot be harmed by them. Furthermore, don't be too literal. Gandalf is speaking figuratively; that is, he does not mean that arrows cannot harm him, but, say, an ordinary dagger can.

Also, his helm seems to me more of a standard for his army than actual protection.

Indeed the Nazgul were afraid of Ar-Pharazon, but remember that the power of Westernesse was very harmful to them; many blades of Numenor were specifically designed to combat the Nazguls' evil.

 

[Inderjit S]

I doubt the Numenoreans knew much about the Nazgul-except perhaps that some of them had become Nazgul, or hated them enough to make special weapons to defeat them, unlike the Dunedain of Arnor.

Also, Gandalf seems to think he could have killed the Witch-King, or at least driven him off.

 

[Ingwë]

I doubt the Numenoreans knew much about the Nazgul-except perhaps that some of them had become Nazgul

Perhaps they don't know much about the Nazgûl. It depends on when the Men get their Rings.
In 1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. If he gave the Nine Rings to the Númenoreans (but not all owner of the Nine Rings are Númenoreans) then, then they are Men who have left Númenor and the other Númenoreans don't know. (Quite possible)
Tar-Calion the Golden seized the Sceptre in 3255. The Downfall of Númenor is in 3319. Meanwhile probably some Númenoreans went to Middle earth and took the Nine Rings but I don't think this is possible because Sauron was imprisoned by the Númenoreans while then. But if the Men took the Nine Rings in 3200+ year I would say that there were Edain who knew about the Ring. But in that case I'm sure that the King didn't know about the Rings because he would want to take them. But he even didn't knew about the one Ring.
So we're sure that the Númenoreans didn't know about the Rings. And especially Elendil and the other Exiles who came back to Middle-earth

 

[Maerbenn]

For your information; according to Appendix B, the Ringwraiths first appear in about 2251.

 

[Ingwë]

For your information; according to Appendix B, the Ringwraiths first appear in about 2251.

Thank you for the information. I used Appendix B but I didn't look for that date. But I thought about giving part of the Nine Rings to the Men of Middle earth and later giving two or three Rings to the Númenoreans.

 

[Thorondor_]

Alcuin and I have been debating over the issue of the barrow blades on another forum.

It seems that Tolkien considered, outside the final version of the LotR, that the swords were about the only thing able to destroy the witch-king:

the Witch-King, the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping from a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron…. was the stronger.

Oct 7. He arose and cried out to his companions, and drew the other four back to him. He then patrols the road to the Bridge of Mitheithel, knowing that it was practically impossible to cross the Greyflood between Tharbad and the Bridge. The Nazgûl search in vain for the Bearer while Aragorn leads Frodo in the pathless lands south of the Road.

Another discussed quote was from Tolkien's critique of the film treatment of LotR:

There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20: the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)

(Imo, this cuts both ways)

Then comes the question: why didn't anyone know about the blades? In HoME VI, Gandalf makes some interesting remarks:

Things work out oddly. But for that 'short cut' you would not have met old Bombadil, nor had the one kind of sword the Riders fear.
...
Among my father's earliest ideas for this part of the story (p. 126) appears: 'Gandalf astonished to hear about Tom.'

Another brief passage on the same slip of paper was struck out at the time of writing: Not to mention courage - and also swords and a strange and ancient name. Later on I must be told about that curious sword of yours, and how you knew the name of Elbereth.

Now, Tolkien giving up the idea of Gandalf's interest about the swords seems to imply that they lost their special power against the nazguls in the final version, but they did remain weapons against the forces of evil, seeing how the orcs of Mordor and Isengard fear them.

Also, no other story character seems to be interested about the swords, not even after the witch-king is killed - not even 'loremasters' such as Elrond, Galadriel, Denethor, Aragorn, etc. It has been argued that the blades were a secret kept by the Dunedain of the Cardolan - but it seems highly unlikely they kept such an important weapon secret from their lord of Arthedain and their elven allies, in a common war against Angmar.

Another question is, if the swords were so dangerous to the nazgul, why would the Mouth of Sauron risk presenting one to his enemies? Losing some rags is no big deal, but the most powerful weapon against the nazgul?
Looking forward to some interesting discussions...

 

[Varokhâr]

Leads me to wonder about the process in which the Barrow-blades were forged. Was it a simple smithing of Numenorean weapons, or did the makers consecrate these weapons somehow? If there were shamanic traditions amongst the Dunedain, did one or more shamans bless the blades, giving them a special power against evil beings? Since magic is basically the focusing and directing of one's will into the real world, could some Dunedain shaman or other figure direct his or her will into the blades, either during or after their creation, to imbue them with some special attribute against Angmar? It would explain why those blades were so feared, whilst other weapons were not.

As for why the Mouth would present one if he knew about its nature, good question. Perhaps the Mouth, in his supreme arrogance, thought it irrelevant that Sauron's enemies should possess a speciall consecrated blade, given they are so few in number and Sauron's forces so large in Mordor. Certainly the Mouth would've recognized any Numenorean ritual markings upon the blade and perhaps even perceived any spells bound to the weapon, so it was most likely not ignorance of the blade's attributes that led him to give it up. And if he didn't, someone in Mordor surely must have.

 

[Arvedui]

Great read, Thorondor, and some very interesting points that are hard to argue. So I will refrain (for the moment).

But considering the action of the Mouth of Sauron, I think that the answer is quite simple: He didn't know better. The Nazgûl were occupied with the war when the blade was taken from Frodo and brought to Sauron. Most likely, the Nazgûl never saw it. Perhaps Sauron could have recognised it's worth if he had taken a closer look at it, but to him it was merely a knife, and during the period when the blade was forged, he was still on his enforced R&R.

Now, when it comes to the lack of knowledge about the value of the blades, there could also be a simple solution: Cardolan was overrun just after the blades were forged.

Concerning Varokhâr's views on how the blades become so powerful against the Witch-king etc, I lean towards the explanation that Elves or Dwarves may have been involved in the forging, or someone who was "pure-blood" Númenórean.

 

[YayGollum]

Well, sure, maybe the pure Numenorean thing, but these things seem to be hyped well enough as coming from those types of humans that I don't see any reason to assume that any sickening elves or superly cool Dwarves had anything to do with making them. Some humans had bits of magicalness in them, too. Anyways, I would think that the Mouth Of Sauron dude should have been able to tell that that type of sword was something pretty achingly cool, but I read nothing about how he gave the thing up. It was stolen very evilly by the evil torturer Gandalf. Nobody expected that to happen. It was only brought out to mess with the good guys.

 

[Gil-Galad 2.0]

Technically I don't think Frodo destroyed the ring since it was Gollom that fell in, not Frodo.
I think that if Merry had not stabbed the Witch king and eowyn had died that when the ring had been destroyed that it would have killed the Witch king. so its not merry and it would have been Eowyn or Gollom. but since Eowyn got him first, she gets the kill.

 

[Arvedui]

I don't quite agree with you, Yay. To the Mouth of Sauron, the blade was no more than a knife, after all. And he was human, maybe at "most" a Black Númenórean. Why should he understand anything about a special blade from a long lost northern Kingdom

 

[Thorondor_]

He did call it "blade of the fallen west" but still took the risk of presenting it to his foes. Doesn't sound like he put much value into it.

 

[Durin's Bane]

And if the blades are dangerous to the Witch King only?

 

[Valandil]

I think particularly dangerous to any Nazgul.

I believe Tolkien refers to a "secret of their making" or something. Remember his view of "magic" - at least what we think of as the "good" magic in his stories. It springs from what is inherently possessed by the maker. The maker wouldn't view anything he made as "magic" himself - just the product of his natural arts.

I think the Dunedain - at least those who were Faithful - had some "secret" ways of making objects quite deadly to those frightful kinds of creatures that were so fearful to other Men.

I sometimes wonder too - why four knives - and not a sword or battleaxe to be found (that we know of)? Of course - they might have made 40 such knives - and maybe another 40 (or 100) swords. I suspect though that not too many of these special blades were made. And in some types of warfare (Medieval comes to mind) - a dagger was often used to strike the final blow.

So - a Northern Dunedain nobleman after the rise of Angmar might have had a regular sword for common use in battle - maybe a regular dagger, for finishing off other opponents - and one very special dagger, "just in case" he ran into one of THOSE.

Frankly - my own guess is that these daggers had a little Mithril in 'em. Not THAT far from Moria, now are we?

As for the Nazgul fearing Boromir, and sometimes falling back in battle before other foes - from the "Letters" - I gathered that, while once they had been Kings, what the Nazgul were now reduced to was pretty pathetic. They put on a good show - being fearful and all - but maybe they were almost as afraid of Men as Men were of them.

 

[YayGollum]

No way, man. They were achingly useful in fights, at least because of their superly cool fear power. They don't seem to have brains enough to be afraid, and even if bits of their old personalities existed, they would think that they are way better than any boring human.

Anyways, true, Arvedui person, but plus what the Thorondor_ person wrote about the guy at least knowing its origins, from what I read about the him, I would think that he would have been able to figure out how achingly cool the blade was. Knew a lot about magic, was especially intelligent, knew Sauron pretty well and had access to his level of knowledge. As to him thinking that the thing was unimportant, I see no evidence of that. I just wrote that nobody expected the thing to get so easily pilfered. The good guys are at the front gate of the bad guy country. The bad guys just tossed a large pile of demoralizing information at them. The sword was held by the Mouth Of Sauron, who was not your typical adversary, too. I certainly wouldn't get too close to the guy! Too bad that they never said what happened to him, at least as far as I know.

 

[Hobbit-GalRosie]

I'm sure I remember Gandalf saying the Mouth was a Black Numenorean, just to clarify that point...though I can't quite swear he wasn't merely speculating I'm still pretty darned certain.

Yay's explanation makes most sense to me; it really doesn't seem likely that the Mouth wouldn't know about these blades. You'd think being Numenorean and he did he could not fail to recognize them for what they were, and if you take into account the level of knowledge it is apparent he had, the way he was close in Sauron's own counsels, and that he himself knew a great deal about sorcery, it just seems far too great a leap to assume he could have been ignorant. But then why he would have brought the blade out is beyond me. He would have had no reason to suspect it might be "stolen" from him but it still seems like a risk a person as intelligent as I just gave him credit for would not have been likely to take. Perhaps this is another example of that kind of tunnel vision evil creatures often have in Tolkien's works, similar to Sauron never contemplating that his enemies would seek to destroy the Ring, but I do not see that this would have been quite so difficult a possibility to come up with. It would have to be pure arrogance in assuming that everyone would be far too demoralised to act.

So...yes, Yay's explanation makes more sense to me than any other I can think of but I must admit there are some problems with that line too.

 

[Alcuin]

I think barrow-blades, of which four were selected by Bombadil for the hobbits from the tomb of the last prince of Cardolan, were of manufacture peculiar to Cardolan. Bombadil was apparently aware of their properties: he was, in fact, aware of much of the history concerning Arnor and its daughter kingdoms, particularly Cardolan, in which lay the region he claimed as his home territory at the end of the Third Age. Information about the blades and their properties does not seem to be known to Gandalf, to Aragorn, or even to Elrond. That would suggest that they were manufactured late in the independence of Cardolan, and that the people who made them might have been killed in the war of 1409.

The 5 Nazgûl at Weathertop, however, did recognize them for what they were. Hammond and Scull commented on this using Tolkien’s notes in the Reader’s Guide

… the Witch-King, the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping from a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron…. was the stronger.

Oct 7. He arose and cried out to his companions, and drew the other four back to him. He then patrols the road to the Bridge of Mitheithel, knowing that it was practically impossible to cross the Greyflood between Tharbad and the Bridge. The Nazgûl search in vain for the Bearer while Aragorn leads Frodo in the pathless lands south of the Road.

Hammond and Scull, Readers Companion notes to p. 208. I am indebted to my friend Gordis in another forum for this quotation.

 

[Thorondor_]

That quote has already been presented, along with other refferences from Sauron Defeated, about the special powers of the blades. These refferences which didn't make it in the final text; the interpretation that I preffer is that the particular power of the blades diminished in Tolkien's mind, which would explain why the nazguls left the blades in a tomb far from their home, near the realms of enemies they fear - while their enemies don't have the slightest clue about their supposed uniquely particular power and and they don't seem to notice it or speak about it.

 

[Thorondor_]

I found another interesting quote in the Reader's companion; it sort of refutes the idea of the blades being known only to the dunedain of Cardolan, but it also gives the blades a good deal of importance:

On 18 April and 6 May 1963, Tolkien wrote to Anneke C. Kloos-Adriaansen and P. Kloos that the incidents of the witch-king [damned be his name ] in Book I, Chapter 12, and of Merry's sword in the present chapter:

were intended to be integrated with the entire mytho-historical background, events in an agelong war. Frodo received his wound from the witch-king under Wheatertop, the bulwark of the ancient fortified line made by the Numenoreans against his kingdom; Meriadoc's dagger was taken from the gravemounds of the same people. It was made by smiths who knew all about Sauron and his servants, and made in prophetic vision or hope of ending just as it did. [spelling sic, courtesy of Christopher Tolkien]