Who were the 💀Nazgul before they became wraiths?

LaurelinBearsFruit said:

@BalrogRingDestroyer I don't know that it was ever mentioned that the builders of Orthanc willingly gave it to Saruman. It was built my the men of Numenor during the height of their power during the Second Age and later abandoned or overrun, as so many of their strongholds later were. The Istari didn't arrive in M-E until the beginning of the Third Age, and by the time that Saruman found and took Orthanc for his own it would have been empty for some time.

At least that is how I understood it.

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Glorfindel Goldtress said:

The Appendix says Saruman was given the keys to Orthanc as a friend in T.A. 2759. Rohan was behind that, were they not?

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Uh, no, to both of you.

After Gondor gave Calenadhorn to Rohan, Orthanc remained a part of Gondor with Gondorian garrison there - likely due to Palantir that was in it. But Gondor, being busy with threats from the East, soon forgot the Orthanc even existed. Garrison continued existing as a hereditary community, from father to son, but Gondorian troops there increasingly intermarried with Dunlendings. So eventually, they became closer to Dunlendings than to Rohirrim and let them inside the ring as friends - which Dunlendings used to take over the Isengard. Long story short, they caused a lot of trouble and were eventually chased out - and with Isengard now empty, Saruman came, seeking Palantir, and Steward of Gondor at the time Whatshisname gave him the keys to Orthanc and Isengard.

In short: Orthanc was built by Gondor and since Gondor gave Orthanc to Saruman, you could say that the "builders of Orthanc willingly gave it to Saruman". But Orthanc was technically never abandoned, it was overrun, and yes, it was empty by the time Saruman was given keys to Orthanc. But it wasn't Rohan who was behind it, it was done on initiative of Gondor, though it is difficult to imagine Rohirrim would have objected to having (as it was then believed) a powerful ally in control of strategically incredibly important fortress.

Aldarion said:

and with Isengard now empty, Saruman came, seeking Palantir, and Steward of Gondor at the time Whatshisname gave him the keys to Orthanc and Isengard.

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And that was in T.A. 2759, correct?

Glorfindel Goldtress said:

And that was in T.A. 2759, correct?

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Yes.

I see your point, but I still think it is a bit of a stretch to say that the original builders gave him the keys. Perhaps by extension, but not they themselves. That was all I was trying to say.

BalrogRingDestroyer said:

But do we have any idea who these nine men were?

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When Faramir tells Frodo about the ''fell men'' who conquered Minas Morgul, he says: ''It is said that their lords were men of Numenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them''. So were all the Nazgul, men of Numenor?

Aethelwulf said:

When Faramir tells Frodo about the ''fell men'' who conquered Minas Morgul, he says: ''It is said that their lords were men of Numenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them''. So were all the Nazgul, men of Numenor?

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All, definitely not, as the only one for whom a name is known, Khamûl, is known as the "Black Easterner". Sauron also had time, from being driven out of Eriador in 1701 Second Age, or perhaps c. 1800 SA, when he is said to have extended his power eastward, to distribute Rings of Power there. The Númenóreans only began to establish dominions on the coasts of Middle-age around this time - but then also "The shadow falls on Númenor" starts about here.

Still, Sauron must have found it easier to ensnare rulers in the east, with which he could have had dealings in the 1200 years of the Second Age before he set out to ensnare the Elves of Eriador, and specifically the Elven smiths of Eregion. The Númenóreans on the coasts were still his enemies, so much more difficult (though by deviousness and deception not impossible) to ensnare. My hunch would be that less than half of the Nazgûl were Númenóreans; the Witch-king possibly was, a "special prize" for Sauron, and as a Númenóreans naturally possessing some traits, at least natural longevity, that set them above other Men.