Who would win between Olorin and 👁️Sauron?

[redline2200]

Originally posted by Lantarion
As the White he would have whooped Sauron's butt, but I still don't think he could have killed Sauron.

You are contradicting yourself.
It is already agreed on that Olorin in his true Maia form is way more powerful than any of the Gandalf forms (White or Grey). So if you say he could beat Sauron as Gandalf the White, then think what he could do in his full power as Olorin!
But then again, you said that we have too high expectations for Olorin, so which one is it?

 

[Lotrguy]

You guys are forgetting that we have no idea of how powerful they are. Sauron created the ring but I never think he was at his full power whenever he used it. Sauron never was as powerful as he could be, think of Sauron at full power with the ring. A force to be reckoned with. Then we have the wisest mair.

Seriously Gandalf the white would not stand a chance against Sauron. What are you talking about, Tolkien even mentioned himself that Sauron was a far higher order than Gandalf or Saurman, and Gandalf himself seriously isn’t that strong.

Olorin at full power vs Sauron at full power, that cannot be decided. In the end, I think they would both die in a duel. The strongest evil mair vs the wisest mair. Wish Tolkien was alive to say. Anyways this is my final answer, and I think it’s accurate.
Edit: This is my new acc since I forgot my old one.

 

[Olorgando]

As my user name and avatar should give away, I am a Gandalf fan. But the Gandalf, as the White, kind of settles the question himself: “I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is stronger still.” Haven’t been able to locate where it is exactly in the book.

But I like to speculate (aka let my imagination run wild, some would say … )

So how well informed is Gandalf as to Sauron’s actual remaining power? Somewhere in the mythology I remember the statement (I’m guessing in HoMe volume 10 “Morgoth’s Ring”, the latter being “all of Arda”) that by the end of the First Age, Morgoth had so dissipated his enormous, but still finite power so massively that by that time Sauron was actually more powerful than Morgoth. But Sauron limited his deliberate dissipation to a “diddly” piece of jewelry. Big difference.

Deliberate dissipation. After the end of the Second Age, Sauron had two serious involuntary dissipations of power, at the destruction of Númenor, and when he was defeated by the Last Alliance and had his Ring (and finger) cut off by Isildur. How much this weakened him is conjecture, but each case was certainly non-trivial. And he also had one weakening during the First Age, when he had to give up that age’s Minas Tirith (renamed Tol-in-Gaurhoth, “Island of Werewolves) to Lúthien, as mentioned in a post above. But he was not defeated by Beren and Lúthien, Beren was actually a captive in the dungeons needing rescue. He got his thrashing (a massive one, to the brink of the destruction of his physical form) by Huan, the Hound of Valinor (boy, would that pooch have come in handy for the Ring Quest!).

By some simple arithmetic, in one scenario, Gandalf would have defeated Sauron. The latter had poured “the greater part” of his native power into the One Ring (nothing less would have sufficed to enable him to dominate the three Elven Rings). So definitely more than half. So if Gandalf wields the One Ring, he has his own native power plus more than half of Sauron’s (there are a few imponderables, but this post is getting more than long enough anyway). But as Gandalf knew, it would have simply ended up as replacing one Dark Lord with another. Not viable.

Some might argue that Gandalf had had his physical form destroyed in the battle with the Balrog, too. Yes, but he was sent back by Eru himself, and with enhanced powers. An absolutely unique situation in the history of Arda.

So we have Sauron, without the Ring, with less than half of his remaining (after the above-mentioned dissipations) native power facing a seriously enhanced (perhaps even in his Maia being?) Gandalf. Does that even up the match? GtW still doesn’t seem to think so.

And a last gasp: at least one Maia was definitely, at all times (meaning Sauron’s maximum power) one that Sauron didn’t stand a chance against in a confrontation: Manwë’s herald Eonwë, who led the forces in the War of Wrath against Morgoth at the end of the First Age. But apparently, he was constrained against forcing Sauron to return to Valinor for judgement, and Sauron didn’t volunteer. (This is one point that makes me really mad at Manwë – or even Eru, it makes no difference: why do the good guy seem always to have one hand tied behind their back?!? 😡)

 

[Alcuin]

From the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales,

[There] is a brief and very hasty sketch … telling of a council of the Valar, summoned … by Manwë …, at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go…

I think we can safely say that Olórin’s estimation of his power vis-à-vis Sauron’s was accurate.

When the Three Hunters meet Gandalf the White for the first time in Fangorn Forest, when Gimli remarks that Gandalf speaks of Treebeard as a friend though Gimli’s impression was that he was dangerous, Gandalf begins his reply,

Dangerous! … And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.

I think this indicates that Sauron is still more powerful that Olórin as Gandalf the White, even enhanced in power as he is upon his return from death.

And in Silmarillion, in the section “Valaquenta”, part “Of the Enemies”, the very last paragraph says,

Among those of [Morgoth’s] servants that have names, the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron... In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

Perhaps there are servants of Morgoth without names, and that one of these is greater than Sauron; but I believe somewhere – I cannot find the citation – Tolkien says that Sauron in his origins was the greatest of the Maiar.

In Morgoth’s Ring, in the section “Myths Transformed”, the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion” beings by saying,

Sauron was “greater” … in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. … Eventually [Sauron] also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be “stained”. …

Sauron … inherited [this] “corruption” of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the “Music” than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor’s greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale.

Sauron was Morgoth’s chief lieutenant until Lúthien defeated him at Tol Sirion; then he fled, and it seems he hid even from Morgoth, lest his master humiliate him in his defeat by Melian’s daughter.

Back to “Valaquenta” for a moment. Eönwë herald of Manwë is described as one “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.” Olórin is described as “wisest of the Maiar”, and the Silmarillion says that, “he loved the Elves, [and] walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them.” But while it attributes the greatest military might to Eönwë, and the greatest strength to Tulkas the Vala, it does not attribute power to Olórin, but wisdom.

Only the Ring would have given Olórin greater power than Sauron. In Letter 246, Tolkien writes,

[O]nly Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron] – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the “Mirror of Galadriel’, … it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. … Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained “righteous”, but self-righteous. …

 

[Lotrguy]

From the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales, I think we can safely say that Olórin’s estimation of his power vis-à-vis Sauron’s was accurate.

When the Three Hunters meet Gandalf the White for the first time in Fangorn Forest, when Gimli remarks that Gandalf speaks of Treebeard as a friend though Gimli’s impression was that he was dangerous, Gandalf begins his reply,I think this indicates that Sauron is still more powerful that Olórin as Gandalf the White, even enhanced in power as he is upon his return from death.

And in Silmarillion, in the section “Valaquenta”, part “Of the Enemies”, the very last paragraph says, Perhaps there are servants of Morgoth without names, and that one of these is greater than Sauron; but I believe somewhere – I cannot find the citation – Tolkien says that Sauron in his origins was the greatest of the Maiar.

In Morgoth’s Ring, in the section “Myths Transformed”, the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion” beings by saying,

Sauron was Morgoth’s chief lieutenant until Lúthien defeated him at Tol Sirion; then he fled, and it seems he hid even from Morgoth, lest his master humiliate him in his defeat by Melian’s daughter.

Back to “Valaquenta” for a moment. Eönwë herald of Manwë is described as one “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.” Olórin is described as “wisest of the Maiar”, and the Silmarillion says that, “he loved the Elves, [and] walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them.” But while it attributes the greatest military might to Eönwë, and the greatest strength to Tulkas the Vala, it does not attribute power to Olórin, but wisdom.

Only the Ring would have given Olórin greater power than Sauron. In Letter 246, Tolkien writes,

Gandalf as ring lord. That’s just Gandalf, let’s imagine olorin out of the old mans body. Olorin would be far worse than Gandalf with the ring. Olorin could be stronger than Sauron even without the ring.

 

[Miguel]

Perhaps there are servants of Morgoth without names, and that one of these is greater than Sauron

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

 

[Lotrguy]

Sauron was definitely the strongest servant of Morgoth. He wasn’t at his full power when fighting Luthien. Also Huan was the one who really defeated Sauron.

 

[Onslaad]

Olorin out of Gandalfs body in his true Maia’s form... and Sauron, morgoths best servant.
First of all, all of Olorins power is dedicated to wisdom, in combat, I don’t think wisdom would do any good against Sauron.
Gandalf the grey tied durins bane, and Gandalf the grey was definitely using a lot of power against the balrog that day, since it was necessary to protect Aragorn and those guys. So we now know Gandalf the grey is equal to durins bane, which is pretty sick.
Also Gandalf the white did have to use his full power when fighting in the last book, as “he was sent back until his task was finished”, I think there was only a war left to fight at that point, no more reuniting. Gandalf the white defeated Saurman, but the witch king got him pretty easily. But remember, that’s only Gandalf the white. We now know Gandalf the white is around witch king of angmars power. Now let’s get out the true Maiar Olorin, and match him with the second dark lord Sauron. At this point it’s no longer small foes and olorins wisdom will out-match his combat. Now it’s wisdom vs pure evil. Who will win. As you can see, Olorin can defeat lesser Maiars, that’s for sure, but Morgoths best servant is a little to much.

Just made this account to reply to this discussion lol

 

[Olorgando]

... Gandalf the white defeated Saurman, but the witch king got him pretty easily. ...

Ah, no. In the book, they confront each other (both on horses!) at the shattered gate of Minas Tirith, but the Witch-king turned back because the Horns of the Rohirrim made his attention for this to him negative turn of events necessary. That Gandalf vs. Witch-king on a fell beast scene in the film (only EE version?) rates among the lowest pieces of garbage Peter Jackson committed in the films. Gandalf the White would have made confetti out of the Witch-king.

 

[Gothmog]

Also in the book it states that after the Witch king left the gate:

At that moment Gandalf stirred and spoke to Shadowfax, and was about to ride through the Gate.

Then while speaking to Pippin:

Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. 'I must go ' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.'

Then:

'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; 'but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this. Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work.'

It would seem that Gandalf had little doubt of the relative strengths of himself and the Witch king.
PJ lowered the good and mighty then lifted up the mean and evil.

 

[Alcuin]

PJ lowered the good and mighty then lifted up the mean and evil.

Yes. The most incisive indictment of the films. A fatal flaw reflecting the temperament and character of Hollywood.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Whatever the nonsense perpetrated by PJ -- and I have to say he ruined one of the greatest scenes in the book -- it's true that filmmaking requires the maintaining of tension that a perceived imbalance of forces would destroy; but it's also true for fiction. I believe Tolkien made a deliberate choice here, not to have a climactic clash between the two, but rather to leave the question unanswered.

'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

We may write this off as the arrogant ranting of a deluded being, but I don't think that is what the author intended. Gandalf had been given greater power at this point, but so had the Witch-King. The victor in such an encounter remains a matter of doubt -- intentionally.

It would seem that Gandalf had little doubt of the relative strengths of himself and the Witch king.

I must disagree here; the quotes you give, as well as others given earlier, to me indicate a great deal of doubt. Gandalf stood up to the Witch-King at the gate, but as I said, I got no feeling he was about to crush him like a fly. Likewise, he doesn't tell Pippin he can't come with him because he as to go out and destroy the WK; what the lines convey to me is the attitude of someone prepared to sacrifice himself to protect others, even if he is killed in the attempt -- that is, even if he fails. We saw him do this in Moria; it's unlikely he was confident of victory there, and I believe the same is true here.

I admit it's a matter of interpretation. 🤔

 

[Olorgando]

Well, when I think about how the W-k was finally destroyed – by a mortal shield-maiden aided by a Hobbit, using a special dagger, for sure, but this was only created by someone from Cardolan, not Númenor or even by High Elves. Personally, I think Gandalf would have sliced the W-k like a Salami with Glamdring. He shattered the Balrog’s weapon with it.

Perhaps to clarify: I recall discussions on another JRRT site of what exactly was the fatal stroke to the W-k, who may have been immune from harm from normal, mortal-produced weapons. The consensus, or more likely majority opinion, was that Merry's dagger was decisive: "there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that had been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed an withered and was consumed (Éowyn's sword, by contrast, "broke sparling into many shards."). … wrought slowly long ago in the North-kingdom, when the Dúnedain were young, … No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a would so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." Tha gave Éowyn the opportunity to kill the W-k, though both Éowyn and Merry paid for it with lame arms - Éowyn with quite a bit more than that.

I would simply rate Glamdring several notches above that dagger.

 

[Gothmog]

I must disagree here; the quotes you give, as well as others given earlier, to me indicate a great deal of doubt. Gandalf stood up to the Witch-King at the gate, but as I said, I got no feeling he was about to crush him like a fly. Likewise, he doesn't tell Pippin he can't come with him because he as to go out and destroy the WK; what the lines convey to me is the attitude of someone prepared to sacrifice himself to protect others, even if he is killed in the attempt -- that is, even if he fails. We saw him do this in Moria; it's unlikely he was confident of victory there, and I believe the same is true here.

I did not say that "he was about to crush him like a fly" but to me it seems clear that Galdalf felt he was well able to block any actions that the Witch King tried. Gandalf knew it was very unlikely that he could destroy the Witch King but that he could prevent him from destroying others.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I did not say that "he was about to crush him like a fly"

No, you didn't -- I did. I was referring to my previous comments about the Gate encounter. Sorry if it sounded like I was imputing them to you.

I still remain convinced the issue was deliberately left in doubt. We see the doubt even here:

'but if I do, then others will die, I fear'.

The author could have made this an unqualified statement, but chose to add a note of ambiguity, something he does throughout the work, in ways large and small. Whether he does this as a deliberate strategy, or because he himself doesn't know the answers, is a question -- I'd suggest a mixture of both --but the ambiguities remain, to be chewed (and argued!) over.

 

[Olorgando]

… The author could have made this an unqualified statement, but chose to add a note of ambiguity, something he does throughout the work, in ways large and small. Whether he does this as a deliberate strategy, or because he himself doesn't know the answers, is a question -- I'd suggest a mixture of both --but the ambiguities remain, to be chewed (and argued!) over.

Tom Shippey makes a forceful statement that JRRT, in LoTR, with a frequent use of “ors” in many scenes, remains silent on the incompatibility (to Christian orthodoxy generally, not just the now so considered eastern variant of it) of two world views: the “Boethian” (evil is simply an absence of good, a character defect, so to speak) and the “Manichaean” “heresy” (there are, in the extreme thought of as equally potent, but at least on the Lucifer / Satan / (Morgoth) level, actual powers out there that are having real-life effects, something that millions of people, especially after WW II, would resoundingly affirm). While JRRT was very much an orthodox, conservative Roman Catholic, his (also professional!) fascination with what he called the “theory of courage of the North” appears to have held him back very much from what his long-time friend C.S. Lewis wrote about much more openly, apparently in his “Narnia” books, and never mind in his (Ulster-Protestant, in the somewhat disapproving view of JRRT) “Christian apologetics”.

Though Lewis’s “The Screwtape Letters” might be very well worth a read, if they are still to be had.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Personally, I think Gandalf would have sliced the W-k like a Salami with Glamdring. He shattered the Balrog’s weapon with it.

Did he? There's a lot going on in that scene, with some mysterious description; in this case:

There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire.

Whence came the "stab of white fire"? We can say "from the clash of swords, obviously", but I'd suggest things are, as so often with Tolkien, not so obvious as they seem. Just moments later, we have:

At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked.

Again, whence came the white flame? From the staff? Maybe; it "broke asunder", so we could attribute it to Gandalf channeling a huge amount of "wizard-power" through it, "short-circuiting" it, so to speak. But if we bear in mind that Gandalf is neither a D&D "wizard" nor a comic book superhero, but an angel, we may see things in a different light. For instance, what is the "cry" he gives, as he strikes the bridge? "Shazam!"? "YOLO!"? Or something of the kind? Or is it possibly a prayer, a calling upon the Valar -- or even upon Eru? If so, can we automatically rule out the possibility of "outside force"? As I've mentioned before, there's ambiguity here.

As there is with the Balrog's "sword", I think. The Balrog is a fire demon, a seraph like Gandalf, though a fallen one, and the fluid nature of fire is emphasized repeatedly; his fluctuating size, for example, or that source of unending argument, his "wings". My own impression has always been that sword and whip were extentions of himself -- he was able to "extrude" them at need. I could well be wrong there -- it wouldn't surprise me -- but that's the feeling I get.

As for Gandalf's fight with and destruction of, the Balrog, it could be -- and often is -- taken as evidence that he would have easily overcome the Witch-King. But again, I feel things are not so simple; that it was an extremely hard-fought battle is clear enough from Gandalf's words alone:

'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels.'

There seems to be little "slicing and dicing" going on there. To underscore the extreme nature of the contest, we can check The Tale of Years:

January
15: The Bridge of Khazad-dum, and the fall of Gandalf.

23: Gandalf pursues the Balrog to the peak of Zirak-zigil.

25: He casts down the Balrog, and passes away.

However much time was spent in pursuit, that's still a long fight. And its ending raises another question:

'I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin'.

What has become of the vaunted "wings"? Why couldn't he just fly away? Had Gandalf already "killed" him? Or just stunned him, so that the fall killed him? Maybe it was too cold to sprout wings? More ambiguity.

On the subject of swords, I think the difference lies not in "power-levels", but in kind and purpose. Glamdring was "made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars", as Elrond says in The Hobbit, and purposely created for use against orcs -- and, I would think, balrogs. But not, apparently, against Men. The Barrow-blades were made by Men, and the spells woven into them were specifically designed as "dissolution" spells, if I can put it that way, "breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will". We can argue about which blade is "stronger", but I can't help thinking such arguments are somewhat beside the point. The natures of the blades are different; does the fact that the barrow-blades don't appear to function as "orc-alarms" make them lesser? I don't know, but they weren't forged for that purpose.

BTW, Olorgando, the ice/fire idea was raised -- briefly -- on this thread from a few months ago, if you'd like to read it:

Crafting of the Knives from the Barrow Downs

I've become interested in the making of weapons that could do harm to the Witch-King - like the four daggers (used by them as short swords) with which the Hobbits were armed by Tom Bombadil. How were the Dunedain able to make them? Was it done solely by someone from Cardolan, or was there...

thetolkien.forum

 

[Gothmog]

Tolkien himself clearly disliked all "Christian apologetics" as shown in his Letter 131 to Milton Waldman

Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.

For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)

And of his own work

The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted – well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

You're absolutely correct, and I'd emphasize Tolkien's words: "not explicit". One reason for the deliberate ambiguities in his work. I'd point out, though, that he did, when expressing regret for the choice of "wizard", explicitly state that "Istari" was meant as a direct analog to Greek aggelos -- "messenger"; the literal meaning of our "angel".

Much could be said about his attitude towards "Christian Apologetics" -- in stories; his rather dim view of the Narnia books has often been taken as mere envy of Lewis's facility in churning them out, year after year, as opposed to his own laborious struggles to finish and publish LOTR. This I think is a mistake; it goes much deeper than that, but there's no time for discussion now. Maybe later.

 

[Olorgando]

On the subject of swords, I think the difference lies not in "power-levels", but in kind and purpose. Glamdring was "made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars", as Elrond says in The Hobbit, and purposely created for use against orcs -- and, I would think, balrogs. But not, apparently, against Men.

Um, yes, but taking what Elrond said in that children's (still quite old-school) fairy-tale as a quote seems to me a bit dubious, perhaps except for "made in Gondolin". Which would mean that JRRT had actually done some "corner-painting" on this topic in TH! I have this vague feeling that he had some (perhaps subconscious) resentment towards his masterpiece LoTR, as he had painted lots of corners there, which he could no longer use in the still-unfinished Sil - he had robbed himself, so to speak, of an awful lot of "niggle-room".

But anyway, Elven blades, I would propose, had been made specifically to be effective against the servants of Morgoth - all of them. And If you think of Fingolfin giving Morgoth seven wounds with his sword Ringil that never again healed (properly), against Morgoth himself, even. Even assuming Glamdring was not in the class of Ringil, to salami-slice a subordinate of a subordinate of Morgoth's (and a Ring-wraith could no longer be considered a man) should have been well within its capabilities.