Who's older? Cirdan or Treebeard?

[Anamatar IV]

I think that quote proves 2 things:

Treebeard is older than Cirdan and Cirdan did not wake among the first of the elves.

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Nóm
I have no idea if it is even know how long the elves were at Cuivienen before Orome met them, but I just imagine it was at least several thousand years based on the way things are worded in the chapter about the awakening and discovery by orome. Correct me if I'm wrong. This seems to leave room for the idea that elves have been around longer than ents while treebeard is older than Cirdan.

From Morgoth's Ring:

And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years) it chanced that Orome rode to Endon in his hunting, and he turned north by the shores of Helkar and passed under the shadows of the Orokarni, the Mountains of the East. And on a sudden Nahar set up a great neighing and then stood still. And Orome wondered and sat silent, and it seemed to him that in the quiet of the land under the stars he heard afar off many voices singing.

Well, it was not several thousand, but still 335 years is enough. Remember that Elrond made his three children in less than 150 years from the time he married. A simple calculation implies that after 335 years the awoken elves must have had grand-children.

 

[Stormcrow]

what about tom bombadil? doesnt it say in FOTR that he was there at the beginning, and he would be there at the end? just for clarification

 

[Maeglin]

yes it does, but indirectly:

I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.

Said by Glorfindel at The Council of Elrond.

Aragornsgirl Cirdan is an elf, the eldest of the elves that still dwell in Middle-Earth, he lives by the Grey Havens, he is a sailor, and he sends other Elves into the west, he also used to be a ring-bearer. If you don't know what all of that is, I suggest reading the Lord of the Rings or re-reading it if you have already done so.

 

[Lantarion]

Um, have you actually read the books, Aragorn's_girl?
I'd say that Treebeard was older.. Didn't the kelvar and olvar arrive before the Firstborn? And weren't the Shepherds of the Trees sent to protect Yavanna's forests from the evil servants of Melkor?

 

[Maeglin]

Well not just Melkor's servants, everyone. They also had to protect the trees against the evil dwarves with their evil axes and anything else that might try to harm them.

 

[Ghan-buri-ghan]

Elves may be old, but Treebeard sez he's the eldest, Gandalf agrees with him, then Tom Bombadil and Goldberry say Bombadil was first. Elrond agrees with Bombadil.

I was always confused vis a vis Bombadil and Elrond versus Treebeard and Gandalf. I figured Professor T was distinguishing between Maiar (Bombadil) and real people (Treebeard.)

Did I just say Treebeard is a real people? O well.

Perhaps one of you wise Tolkien Academicians can set me strait.

 

[*Lady Aragorn*]

who is cirdan? i voted for treebeard, only because i knew who he was. is cirdan an ent or what is he?

 

[Maeglin]

Cirdan is an elf, he lives at the Grey Havens, and he is probably the oldest elf in Middle-Earth(I am not sure but I think it may be possible that Galadriel rivals him in age). Anyway he is a sailor and he sends all of the other elves that want to leave Middle-Earth away on ships into the undying lands (Valinor), if you want to know even more about him and all that about Valinor, I suggest reading The Silmarillion.

 

[Maeglin]

I have found yet another quote, this one implying that elves are the oldest creatures in Middle-Earth:

When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake.

From "In the house of Tom Bombadil".

 

[Lantarion]

Well, as I understand it, the Ents were awake even before the Elves awoke.. So perhaps this was a little slip on Tolkien's behalf? It isn't impossible.
Aragorn's_Girl, why vote if you do not know of the other of the two options??

 

[Maeglin]

It could very well be a slip on Tolkien's behalf, I mentioned in a post on the previous page that he may have contradicted himself without noticing when I pointed out how many times it is said that the Elves are the oldest, and then how many times it is said that the Ents are the oldest, perhaps he never made up his mind on this?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

I was under the impression that the thread was about who was older between Cirdan and Treebeard, not between Elves and Ents.

 

[Maeglin]

It was, but things changed, and since Cirdan is the oldes Elf and Treebeard the oldest Ent, this new topic came up.

 

[Ghan-buri-ghan]

There is absolutely NO justification for saying Cirdan is the oldest elf.

None whatsoever. None. Show me a reference, please.

There are TWO references in the three LOTR books as to which entity is the "eldest."

The first is Tom Bombadil. Bombadil and Goldberry refer to Bombadil as being the "first" and "Eldest." As I stated earlier, Elrond in Rivendell, at the Council, agrees with this assessment.

The second is Treebeard. Gandalf sez several times in TTT and RotK that Treebeard is the oldest living thing.

And that's it! Now the elves were around in the beginning, but BEFORE the elves were the Maiar, the, um, mini-Valar, and that's what Bombadil is. He is clearly older than Cirdan, even assuming (even without any proof) that Cirdan awoke at Cuivenien.

I have not read the Silmarillion for many years, so I defer to the rest of you Silmarillion scholars as to the timing of Yavannah's creation of the ents.

 

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Ghan-buri-ghan
but BEFORE the elves were the Maiar, the, um, mini-Valar, and that's what Bombadil is.

Now it's your turn to give me evidence that Tom is a Vala! Seriously, you can't go around declaring stuff like that; the matter has been debated for decades, and still noobdy is certain.

 

[Ghan-buri-ghan]

Lantarion stated:

"Now it's your turn to give me evidence that Tom is a Vala!"

That's not what i said. Tom is a Maiar. Tolkien never says it, I just assumed it. He has long life and magical powers and is not an elf. I guess he could be a Vala. He's not a man, or dwarf, or ent.

But that is beside the point. The facts as presented in LOTR are:

1. Several characters say Bombadil is the "Eldest" and was
"first." Loremaster Elrond, when contemplating Sauron obtaining the ring, says something like (paraphrase) "Just as he was First, so will he be the Last." Or something like that.

2. Several characters ALSO say Treebeard is the "oldest living thing in Middle Earth." Gandalf the White says it, no less.

This is a minor little contradiction that has bugged me for many years, since I first read the book.

However, this thread was established to talk about the OLDEST thing. And we're talking about Cirdan. There's no reason to talk about Cirdan. He's NEVER mentioned as the oldest living thing.

These other two are.

 

[quickbeam]

How can you assume that Tom Bombadil is a Maia? He could be belong to a miscellaneous category. Consider the school of thought that maintains that he is some kind of nature spirit.

 

[Ghan-buri-ghan]

Quickbeam said:

"How can you assume that Tom Bombadil is a Maia? He could be belong to a miscellaneous category. Consider the school of thought that maintains that he is some kind of nature spirit."

I've noticed a tendency on these forums (fora?) to see the main point of the discussion get lost in endless digressions over various minor points, not germane to the central discussion.

Here, I have in no way forgotten the main issue here: the issue of "eldest-ness." (as distinguished, i suppose, from "elvis-ness.")
The first time i read LOTR, the FIRST TIME, I noticed the apparent contradiction in description between TREEBEARD, the oldest living thing, and BOMBADIL, the "eldest" or "First."

Honest, if any of you have any insight on that, I'd like to hear it. Don't go start talking about Cirdan, though, unless you can show me where you got the info from.

As to "nature spirits." As I understand Tolkien's world construction, such "spirits," like Goldberry, are Maiar. When the world was created there were Vala and Maiar.

The Valar are the Gods of middle earth. The Maiar are lesser than Maiar, but still mighty to mere mortals like men, possessing power greater than any mere mortal.

Any "nature spirit" found in Middle Earth I think would be a Maiar. I have reviewed much, but not all, of the Tolkien material published by his son, and I DON'T see support for a construction of Middle Earth gods to include "nature spirits" in addition to the Valar and Maiar. Perhaps someone who has more familiarity with this part of the work can speak up.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Círdan is the Elf who lives by the Grey Havens. The creation of the Ents is told in the chapter 'Of Aule and Yavanna' of the Silmarillion, while the awakening of the Elves happens in 'Of the coming of the Elves' which is a later chapter. So the Elves were maybe conceived earlier in the mind of Ilúvatar, but they were awakened after the Ents. But then, what is existing? Did they already exist before they were awakened? Or were the Ents also first conceived and only later actually came into being, after the Elves were there?

Actually, what is said is:

The Silmarillion: Of Aulë and Yavanna
When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

So first the children awoke, and only afterwards did the spirits (Ents) appear.

I dont even think this should be a discussion because Treeberad is specifically named as the oldest thing in midlle earth.

So is Tom Bombadil. It seems that the superlative 'eldest' is used lightly. Perhaps treebeard is simply the oldest of all living things, meaning plants and animals, i.e. non-humanoids.

Didn't the kelvar and olvar arrive before the Firstborn? And weren't the Shepherds of the Trees sent to protect Yavanna's forests from the evil servants of Melkor?

Yes they did, but the Ents were spirits who were sent to dwell among the olvar after the Elves awoke.