Who's older? Cirdan or Treebeard?

[redline2200]

So is Tom Bombadil. It seems that the superlative 'eldest' is used lightly. Perhaps treebeard is simply the oldest of all living things, meaning plants and animals, i.e. non-humanoids.

This is not a discussion of Tom Bombadil's age. The question is between Círdan and Treebeard. Now, I do understand your theory about the oldest thing excluding humanoids, and I see how you established that the elves were awakened before the ents, but just because the elves were awakened before the ents does not mean that Círdan came into existence before the ents. Círdan was not one of the original elves, unless I am utterly mistaken. I cannot remember where Círdan is placed on the timeline of elves, but I am almost certain he was not one of the very first.
It seems that this debate could continue indefinitely...

 

[Ithrynluin]

Cirdan is not placed anywhere particular on the timeline. All we have to work with is that we see him entering Beleriand, a bearded ancient looking elf. Elves did not have beards until they reached their third cycle of life, with the exception of Mahtan father of Nerdanel, Fëanor's wife.

Re: Tom Bombadil. No, this certainly is not a discussion about him. However, I brought his example into the equation to illustrate how the title 'eldest' is used for more than one individual, and it may underlie different and ambiguous interpretations.

 

[Celebthôl]

Cirdan is not placed anywhere particular on the timeline. All we have to work with is that we see him entering Beleriand, a bearded ancient looking elf. Elves did not have beards until they reached their third cycle of life, with the exception of Mahtan father of Nerdanel, Fëanor's wife.

Re: Tom Bombadil. No, this certainly is not a discussion about him. However, I brought his example into the equation to illustrate how the title 'eldest' is used for more than one individual, and it may underlie different and ambiguous interpretations.

Good ol' Ithy confusing us all again!

Círdan was obviously at Cuivenien, hes got a beard for crying out loud! As Ithy says they dont get them for a looooooooooooong long time. Anyways, as i was saying, Treebeard was awoken by the Elves (well The Ents were, so id guess Treebeard might have been too), so there! ner! I'm right!

 

[Wonko The Sane]

And here is the quote that says that Elves are older than Ents, from Treebeard himself, this is the lore of living creatures:

Learn now the lore of Living Creatures! First name the four, the free peoples: Eldest of all, the elf-children; Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses; Ent the earthborn, old as mountains; Man the mortal, master of horses:

Thats just part of it, but anyway it says that Elves are older, I think Tolkien must have contradicted himself without realizing it, after all, everyone makes mistakes.

Doesn't that just mean that the Elves are the oldest of the 4 peoples?

 

[Elthir]

'New' information from Hammond and Scull! in an unpublished draft letter of late 1968 Tolkien wrote...

'Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List... since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking' JRRT

Galin

 

[Wonko The Sane]

'New' information from Hammond and Scull! in an unpublished draft letter of late 1968 Tolkien wrote...

'Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List... since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking' JRRT

Galin

I wonder if we are to take from this that perhaps 'Eldest' could be a courtesy title for Tom Bombadil as well. (Sorry, not to bring him into this or anything.)

Also, where did you get that quote. Sorry, but I don't know who Hammond and Scull are, and I wonder if this is a new collection of unfinished letters where I can get a copy.

However, I wonder if anyone could answer my question about the Lore of Living Creatures...Doesn't the quote provided only show that the Elves are the oldest of the four free peoples?

 

[Elthir]

That quote is from the new book The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion. London: HarperCollins; Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2005 (Hammond And Scull).

Galin