Why didn't 👁️Sauron have 🐲dragons in his army during the War of the Ring?

[nodnarb]

why is it that during the war of the ring that sauron didnt have any dragons in his army? was he simply not strong enough to controll them? did they just rather run around stealing dwarfs gold for themselves instead of fighting for someone else?? and back during the last aliance didnt i read somwhere that sauron had controll over all things that were once under morgoths? but i never saw anywhere of him using them....sorry for the poor structure of my posts..i just try to get my point across not make it look pretty

 

[Illuin]

Well after the death of Smaug (pre-War of the Ring), there weren’t any “Great Dragons” left. Other than Smaug, the other Dragons of the North (whether under Sauron’s command or not) wouldn’t have been much of a threat. However, Gandalf mentions that Sauron apparently intended to form an alliance with Smaug. But unless the offer of unlimited treasure was involved, it’s unlikely Smaug would have gone for it. Sauron couldn’t just “order” a beast as powerful as Smaug to join his forces either. Smaug would have just laughed in his face.

 

[YayGollum]

1. There were none to be had. Or none that he knew of. Or they were sleeping somewhere. Dragons usually sleep for a while. Or they had traveled too far away. Or they went back their homeland, the Last Desert, which is why the hobbit legend about Wereworms over there exists.

2. This is a subject that I am not entirely clear on. Sauron is said to have some kind of creepy and magical control over things popularly seen as evil, but I'm not sure how it works. Sure, the Nazgul have lost all willpower and seem to be robots, but the Orcs seem to have free will. So, even though his control is usually written of in a way that makes it seem magical (and creepy), maybe with the Orcs, it just means that they're used to doing what they're told and aren't practiced at rebellion. Dragons are different. Very intelligent and independent. If he tried to use some kind of creepy telepathy on them, they'd resist, they might win, or he'd just have to keep his concentration up at all times, which would be impractical. He'd employ the alliance sort of thing, as was mentioned.

3. Yes, usually. Not always Dwarves, though. It's just that Dwarves are a very reliable source of such things. And so much fun to play with, since they don't die as easily as the other races! After Mel was hauled off, the dragons ran all over the place. Lots ended up near stable Dwarvish communities. Lots were killed off. Some were also chained and let loose in Orome's forest in Valinor, where he hunts them. Others are in hiding.

4. I don't remember reading that, but maybe you did. Creepy and magical control doesn't seem likely for everything that was under Mel's control (which wasn't always creepy and magical, either). But he was the second in command, so plenty of Mel's minions would have listened to his summons.

5. No problem. Easily understandable.

 

[HLGStrider]

The appendix includes some speculation that Sauron did plan to use Smaug to do some burning and pillaging on his behalf. Dragons like to burn and pillage and if approached with the proper deference, I imagine he would've done it for just about any evil overlord who happened to be around. Supposedly that is one of the reasons Gandalf was so keen to get Thorin and Co back to the Lonely Mountain.

 

[Prince of Cats]

To me that is one of the things that adds so much magic to the Hobbit. It's a story of a middle-age hum-bug getting dragged into an adventure and not only ends up conquering himself but also changing the fate of more lands than he had ever seen previous Adds even more mystery to the ways and motives of Gandalf too

 

[chrysophalax]

As one of the few Dragon representaves here, I have to ask for your definition of "evil". Surely acting upon one's natural instincts cannot be considered evil, even if it does involve the consuming of various two-legged creatures which happen to think of themselves as intelligent beings.

What had Sauron to cajole us with to do his bidding in any case? Certainly there were many roomy caves among the mountains in Mordor, but orc is hardly the diet I would choose on a regular basis...too much gristle. No...I think the eldest among us would remember how things turned out for our predecessors and stay to ourselves.

 

[Persephone]

As one of the few Dragon representaves here, I have to ask for your definition of "evil". Surely acting upon one's natural instincts cannot be considered evil, even if it does involve the consuming of various two-legged creatures which happen to think of themselves as intelligent beings.

lol! Oh, Chrys! I miss this about you! Yes, of course we cannot dub something evil based on their instinct. It's just like saying Lions are evil because they devour anything that they could, or those killer wales that thump the living daylight out of seals and penguins before eating them. That's how nature made them so although it squicks the heck out of me (which is why natgeo is not a popular channel in my house), I don't consider these creatures evil. So goes with dragons, I guess, since it was in their nature to act as such.

My question is, dragons clearly have magic of their own, in the Hobbit we learn that they have the ability to lure prey just by talking to them--dragon talk--I assume that this kind of sorcery can be compared to Saruman's, though maybe not on the same level. So, would Sauron, the great deceiver, have been successful in deceiving such deceitful creatures?

 

[YayGollum]

Yes. Or, it would depend on the dragon. Sure, the ones that Tolkien wrote about were plenty tricksy, but there could have been less intelligent ones. When it comes to things like that, I wouldn't think that tricksiness would be his first tactic, anyway. If the dragon was intimidatable, he'd prefer that. If no, he'd promise it stuff, which could be a trick, but it's so transparent that both sides would have plans for getting what they want in the end.

Also, I thought that the evil gaze attack was the main thing that messed with people's brains, not the voice. Mayhaps no.

 

[nodnarb]

even if there wasnt any more great dragons i couldnt imagine a dragon being very ungreat....id have to say that even a small dragon would be a threat..plus small dragons would be easier to feed

 

[Persephone]

Also, I thought that the evil gaze attack was the main thing that messed with people's brains, not the voice. Mayhaps no.

It could have been part of it, but Smaug couldn't see Bilbo when he was talking to the Hobbit, and Bilbo nearly fell for it. But perhaps staring was an added feature to the whole voice effect.

 

[YayGollum]

Yep. The evil thief Bilbo Baggins was only ever beset by a conscience when Smaug's gaze struck him. The guy was looking all over the place, but since the evil thief Bilbo Baggins was invisible, he only felt the wish to be good for a little while. The voice was only to be feared because dragons were known for being tricksy.

 

[Persephone]

Yep. The evil thief Bilbo Baggins was only ever beset by a conscience when Smaug's gaze struck him. The guy was looking all over the place, but since the evil thief Bilbo Baggins was invisible, he only felt the wish to be good for a little while. The voice was only to be feared because dragons were known for being tricksy.

This actually makes us see further how resilient Hobbits are. Bilbo was able to resist Smaug's temptations. What about the other beings that Smaug had encountered before settling inside the Lonely Mountain? Were they as resilient as Bilbo Baggins? I doubt it. Just as Isildur wasn't as resilient to the power of the ring as Samwise Gamgee was.

 

[YayGollum]

Argh! I was writing about how the evil thief Bilbo Baggins had no conscience, and you decided to take one of my points and turn it into praise for nasssty hobbitses? oh well. No, the evil thief Bilbo Baggins would have shown himself to Smaug if the guy had known where he was. The only other examples of this that we have are Glaurung versus Turin elfbane and Nienor, and they didn't stand a chance. I know of no other beings that Smaug mentally messed with. I doubt that Dwarves would have been overly affected, though, since they were made to resist an evil more potent evil. Which is why they should have been the ones to take the One Ring thing to Mount Doom!

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

But weren't all the dragons descended from the ones Morgoth created? I mean like they weren't a natural phenomenon in Middle Earth, he formed them and gave them life so in essence all the dragons are evil anyways.

 

[YayGollum]

That is not entirely true. Mel can't create anything, so he just took a bunch of materials and spirit glued them together. Different dragons were made out of different things, and the only reason they had life, or something close, was because he got some of his Ainurish followers to inhabit the bodies. I don't remember much more along the lines of Ainur being able to possess random things. Usually, they poofed their own appearances out of nothing, but, if the bodies included the sorts of things that were in those particular spirits' natures, I don't see why it wouldn't make sense. That would be why there were all kinds of different dragons. Some spirits were spirits of fire, some were spirits of ice, some were into flying, some were too snake-oriented to even try legs out.

 

[chrysophalax]

*tsk, tsk* Erestor, Erestor, there you go making hasty generalisations. Dragons are no more inherently evil than the next flying/crawling/slinking reptile. The fact that we are endowed with greater oratorical abilities than lesser beings should hardly qualify us as evil...should it?

Honestly, merely because one enjoys the praise of one's dinn...ah, potential admirerers, why does that register in the minds of some as dangerous? In addition, how is it "evil" to have the ability to persuade others of your point of view? Is that not advantageous?

*sigh* Humans...so suspicious! Melkor treated us well and therefore, we aided him. The elves, well, seeing such large, awesome creatures for the first time must have been daunting, of course. But did they have to assume we were lusting for their flesh? If only they, as Narya once wisely did with myself, greeted the firstborn among us with a entire herd of roast lamb, we would have got on famously!

But did they? Nooo...it was all, "AAIIIIEEE! Where are my arrows/swords/other sharp pointy things!?!" It's a shame really...such a misunderstanding...

 

[Turgon]

I think most of the powerful dragons, like the Balrog of Moria, could well have gone rogue after the fall of Morgoth. Maybe not recognizing Sauron as the heir apparent. Maybe not even caring. It seems to me that the smarter a creature is - the less likely they are to follow somebody blindly. As people have said previously, Smaug is mentioned as the only dragon threat to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age, and Gandalf's schemes did for him. Probably for the best, as let's face it, dragon-slayers were few and far between. Bard himself was something of an unlikely candidate...