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Why Make Faramir Bad?

Originally posted by lossenandunewen
here. lets just make this easy

if pj made faramir good -- his importance would not be noticed until mid ROTK. maybe He wanted to introduce faramir earlier so there weren't so many new characters to throw into ROTK and so ROTK wasn't 7 hours long. I think what he did with faramir was fine. in essence, faramir wasn't even that important a player anyways! so he protected a smidgeon of land, and then got sick for the rest of the book ,and then let everyone know how mad denethor was. And maybe he wanted us to know who faramir was before he showed us he marries Eoywn.

geez, you people are so negative. this is PJ vision, not yours.

Number 1: Chill out, lossenandunewen. We are being critical and observing, not negative.
Number 2: We have every right to do this on this forum. If you want strict undying devotion to what PJ is doing, and have a problem with criticism, go find a movie lover's forum.
Number 3: In some of our opinions, the way Faramir was handled negated the power of the ring, the nobility of Faramir (see my above post), and the plot direction. These are big things.
 
Originally posted by lossenandunewen
here. lets just make this easy

if pj made faramir good -- his importance would not be noticed until mid ROTK. maybe He wanted to introduce faramir earlier so there weren't so many new characters to throw into ROTK and so ROTK wasn't 7 hours long. I think what he did with faramir was fine. in essence, faramir wasn't even that important a player anyways! so he protected a smidgeon of land, and then got sick for the rest of the book ,and then let everyone know how mad denethor was. And maybe he wanted us to know who faramir was before he showed us he marries Eoywn.

geez, you people are so negative. this is PJ vision, not yours.
Spoken like someone who has intensively read the book and understands it ever so well.

It is PJ's vision and as such, is subject to our scrupulous attentions. On the one hand he takes the books on the set before he films each scene while in the other he gives us such totally changed characters as Arwen, Aragorn and Farmair, to name a few.

Please choose to disagree with us if you like... but don't deny us our opinion to disagree with both PJ and you. That is the whole reason for this forum. I have my opinion and you have yours. I give you every right to believe what you want but the characterizations in the book are very different from those in the movie. You say it is no big deal, we purists, feel it is a very big deal.
 
Originally posted by Thorin
You seem to forget that had it not been for the Nazgul swooping down on everybody, Faramir would have taken Frodo and Sam with the "gift for his father". He was totally under the temptation of the ring. The Nazgul and the following circumstances ended up making Faramir rethinking everything. Hardly a "noble" character showing his true stripes on his own. It was not by Faramir's own will that he ended up letting Sam and Frodo go. In that, Tolkien's Faramir comes off as much more noble. PJ's Faramir was blowing the whole thing.
I simply disagree here. Every time we see Faramir he seems to loathe what he is doing. Yet he has no real reason not to follow the law of his country- Frodo and Sam are found under very suspicious circumstances, and they are not exactly open and honest in conversation with him. However, the moment Sam tells Faramir about how Boromir died, we get a sense of change of purpose. My opinion is that from that point on Faramir would have let Frodo go regardless of the Nazgul.
How can you possibly say that Faramir did not let Frodo go of his own will??? Nobody was forcing his hand in his decision, except the man from Gondor who reminded him his life would be forfeit. Faramir didn't "understand" the nature of the Ring until he saw proof of what it could do, if that is what you mean. I don't see that as being un-noble, however. Is acting out of ignorance somehow more noble?

Originally posted by Thorin
There is no proof that Boromir wouldn't have done the same thing under the same circumstances. After his attempt on Frodo, he came to his senses immediately by the circumstances of his failed attack and knock on the noggin and was instantly remorseful. In both these situations, Faramir and Boromir are exactly alike.
Boromir was a man of action. This is reiterated time and again both in the books and in the movie. You know this. I know this. It isn't even debatable. No, there is no proof, but there is strong indication. If you like I can come up with both movie and book quotes that will show this.
I think there is a big difference between Boromir and Faramir. Faramir never gives in to the urge to posess the Ring. He lets it go freely once he has made his decision. Boromir is told from the outset what the nature of the Ring is. Yet every chance he gets, he still desires to posess it in spite of the fact that he knows what it is, knows better than Faramir even. Yes Boromir comes to his senses- but he does so after it is too late and he knows it. Faramir let's the Ring go before it is too late- all the difference in the world.
 
I agree Thorin, that no one can be sure what Boromir would have done if he were in Faramir's position. What I do know is that right after hearing the black speech at the council along with Gandalf saying the Ring is altogether evil, and even before Gandalf sits back down, Boromir just lights up and blurts right out with is fresh idea - "It is gift! Why not use it?!"

Good question Boromir! ;)

(imo) the EE made Boromir's reluctance to accept the counsel seem even stronger. I think it wasn't until the madness had passed that he finally understood that the Ring would not have been of use. Even then he may not have, he may only have regretted that he lost control and attacked Frodo.

I think Faramir was wise enough to understand through and through that the Ring was evil, and it was best not used.

I suspect that if Boromir witnessed the Nazgul close call that Faramir witnessed it would have furthered his ideas that the Ring should be used as a weapon. I think the black speech and the things said at the council were as good, if not a better indicator that the Ring was best unused than was seeing a Nazgul almost get ahold of it.
 
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i'm sorry if you interpreted my writing like that, but i didn't mean it in any way, shape, or form a harsh and angry thing. I was mearly stating what may have been running through PJ's head when he changed Faramir's character. I'm not denying you people your right to rip apart and spit on someone's creative product. It doesn't hurt me, i'm just stating my above opinion - just like you.
 
Originally posted by lossenandunewen
I'm not denying you people your right to rip apart and spit on someone's creative product. It doesn't hurt me, i'm just stating my above opinion - just like you.

But this is the attitude we are having a problem with. We are far from "ripping apart" and "spitting on someone's creative product". Comments like that, to me, sounds like someone is taking criticism of PJ's movie too personal. Most of us have found something good to say about PJ's films, and we also find much fault. We are allowed to voice those opinions both ways. Far from "ripping" and "spitting"

If all your only argument is "PJ had the right to make it that way, so if you don't like it, don't see it!", then that tells me that it is your view of the films that is skewed, not ours.

Anyone who cannot see the mistakes and errors (both as a movie and an adaptation) of PJ's films due to seemingly blind devotion to the man and his "creative product", and seems to balk at anyone else making a criticism as such should be evaluating themselves, not the opinions of others.
 
Originally posted by lossenandunewen
....i didn't mean....a harsh and angry thing.
....you people your right to rip apart and spit on....
You can't have the first line AND the second; either you mean what you say in the first line or you leave out the second.
You call yourself "Irish Andy"; without any intention of being unkind to those splendid people in Eire I have to say that your posting was a pure "Irishism".
 
Originally posted by joxy

You call yourself "Irish Andy"; without any intention of being unkind to those splendid people in Eire I have to say that your posting was a pure "Irishism".
i'm sorry, what's that supposed to mean?
 
Oh dear god

lossenandunewen and joxy- please, before this goes anywhere, let's leave any and all UK vs. Eire comments for a different forum entirely. Please and Thank You.
 
i have no problem with that
i never once attacked england or english men.. i think it's nice over there, ofcourse not as nice as home could ever be but i'm sure he feels the same way about his home.

I'm mearly defending PJ because he tried to do justice with fotr, and people don't seem to realize how hard it is to direct a movie, especially off a classic.. personally i don't think there is any way he could live up to tolkien, and i think he knew that to.. he tried..
 
Thanks Grond for letting me know that SoftheS means Scouring of the Shire . So you all think PJ won't add this to the movie? I wonder how he will show that the Shire was affected by war? Maybe he just will leave the Shire OK, who knows?

Wow, my post has brought about some very interesting debate. I never knew it would. It is very interesting to read what everyone thinks on this subject.
 
Originally posted by lossenandunewen
i have no problem with that
i never once attacked england or english men.. i think it's nice over there, ofcourse not as nice as home could ever be but i'm sure he feels the same way about his home.

I'm mearly defending PJ because he tried to do justice with fotr, and people don't seem to realize how hard it is to direct a movie, especially off a classic.. personally i don't think there is any way he could live up to tolkien, and i think he knew that to.. he tried..
I agree that we need to leave nationality alone. I am but an ignorant colonial myself. :) I must heartily disagree with your opinion lossenandunewen though. I don't think that PJ tried very hard to live up to the "vision of Tolkien" at all. I feel that he, PB and FW had their own agenda in making the changes they did. This very thread reeks of one of the changes. The entire film (while working as a film) reeks of attempting to change The Lord of the Rings into a story about interactions of Men and Women and less of the story Tolkien wrote.

I can't help but believe that as PB and FW got deeper into the screenplay, they made a concious decision to modernize the subplots and characterizations in the movie. This theory would easily explain Arwen's expanded role as the saviour of the party in the wild. (Female savior). It would explain the weakening of the Aragorn/Strider character as illustrated at the Shrine of Narsil (so he may be built up and revitalized by the female characterization of Arwen). Slowly but surely, the male roles have been lessened and shaded in deference to an increased female presence and pervasiveness.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in making these changes from a cinematic viewpoint. They do, however, completely change both the mood and characterizations of the underlying story. It also explains why the first two films seem so focused on building a tale about the coming of age of a lost King and not necesssarily the coming of age of a people (the Hobbits.) Maybe PJ will pull all of it together by the end of the movie. I hope so. I hope he is able to visually depict the inner growth of the Hobbits and the ultimate humbling of Aragorn as he realizes he is just a part of the larger picture. Arwen was supposed to be the culmination of his triumph not the driving force behind his actions. Aragorn's innate goodness and desire to prove the bloodline of Elendil was the driving forces at work. The Promise of Arwen was but the just rewards of living a life and fighting for right.

I can't help but believe that there is little vision that the movie receives from PJ, PB or FW. What vision leaks through their magnificent cinematic event that keeps me watching it over and over is the fact that no matter what they do, they can't completely squeeze Tolkien out of Middle-earth. After all, it is his world. :)
 
Grond: I think you've rather hit the nail on the head with your assessment. That is, I think you've identified one of the key failures of the movies. There are many who have defended Arwen's increased role, especially in Fellowship, claiming either that it is a relatively minor change that does not distort the plot or, even more outrageously, that it is all based somehow on the Appendices. Both of these arguments miss something fundamental.

There are two sorts of ill effects that arise from the alterations to Arwen's role. The first simply incluces all those ways in which Arwen's character was changed, or the actual events of the story altered. So instead of Glorfindel we have Arwen. Instead of being the character Tolkien described, she's some kind of Xena-like warrior. Instead of Narsil being reforged before the Fellowship sets out, it's reforged later. And so forth.

Those changes are unfortunate enough in themselves. But what Arwen's defenders seem to miss is the second sort of thing that results from the changes: the distortion of other characters and of the very nature of the story. While Arwen is being made commercially viable and standing up to the Nazgul (with some poorly-written bit of Hollywood cliche that never could have come out of one of Tolkien's characters), Frodo is being very seriously weakened as a character. Turning around and confronting the Black Riders at the Ford is one of the key moments in Frodo's character arc, and one of the few places where he is actually very heroic. The few instances like these (another is in the Barrow, but of course that's gone too) are needed early on, since he spends most of Return of the King doing little other than being extremely weary. Moreover, his early instances of heroism must contrast with his pacifism and resignation at the end. In the movie, Frodo came across very weakly, in part because one of his key moments was stolen by Arwen. As Grond pointed out, Arwen's increased role has had a similar weakening effect on Aragorn's character.

The change in Faramir has a very similar effect. In the book, there was a very important contrast between Boromir and Faramir, the one who went to the Council and the one who was meant to go, the one who failed to resist temptation and the one who succeeded. There may still be a hint of contrast between them in the movie, but its point is gone. More importantly, Faramir is supposed to represent (along with Eomer and Aragorn) the hope that is left in Men. The point is that there are those who will do the right thing, who will overcome temptation. This is lost in the movie.

It seems that Jackson (and Walsh and Boyens) are missing something essential. That is, when you make a change to the plot, or to a character, that change has effects, often subtle effects, throughout the rest of the films. Increasing Arwen's role doesn't just increase Arwen's role - it weakens other roles. The same for Faramir's change. This is one of the key weaknesses of the movies.
 
My interpretation is that to refuse something in a meaningful way, you first have to be tempted by it. Refusing something which is in no way appealing to you is trivial. My impression from the Amon Hen scene is that this was meant to be significant, especially given the earlier anxiety re. the Ring which Aragorn had experienced at the Shrine of Narsil in Rivendell. If this is a significant refusal on the part of Aragorn, then my logic necessitates that he was in some way tempted by the Ring. This is my own personal view of the movie, of course.
 
It didn't appear to me that Faramir ever "succumbed" to the ring. Looked like he was gonna do just what any good military commander should do with the discovery of a super weapon and send it to his superiors. He should have yanked it off of Frodo as soon as he figured out what it was. And he was more than fair in his treatment of our three little buddies.

Talimon understands what I consider the best frame of mind for adaptations and second viewings. Go as if it's all new and unknown (as far as possible) and if it's good you'll be much more immersed in the wonder of it all. Audience reaction and conversation is one of the good things of subsequent viewings isn't it Talimon? ;)
 
Originally posted by Talimon
I saw TTT last weekend again, and I got a new perspective on Faramir that some might find interesting.


I was in a theatre with folks who had never read the book. I was hearing them talk and react, and it was clear that they didn't have a clue what was going to happen. As such I decided to react to the movie in the same way: treat it liked I'd never seen it or knew anything about it. This may sound a little weird, but for me, connecting with the audience is what makes seeing films in the theatre so different from seeing films at home.

First of all, I enjoyed TTT much more then any of my previous viewings. In fact, the whole wonder of seeing this world reveal itself to me was just fantastic. I was reacting to the film much in the same way I react to most other art: I let the artist dictate his/her own rules. I don't come in imposing my own opinions about what the film should be like. I keep an open mind and follow each films own language. What works in one film doesn't work in another.

In either case, when we came to Faramir I found that I was reacting to him very differently then I had before. In fact, the first thing I realized was that I didn't even know his name until much later on. All I knew about him was what Galadriel told me: he is a captain of Gondor. As such I made the assumption that he was just an ordinary soldier. I didn't expect him to reject the ring. There was no reason he should. He was just another captain. This notion was further strengthened when we got to Osgiliath. We saw Gondor fighting a battle. It only made sense that this captain would take the ring. In fact, when he finally decided to let Frodo go I was surprised with him. I saw it in this light: here is this ordinary captain, leading men into battle. He is in the midst of a great battle at the very moment. He then gets this new revelation regarding the ring, and decides to rise above those around him. He gains foresight. I saw it as an ordinary soldier all of a sudden seeing the bigger picture. More importantly, he is willing to break the rules. This is admirable.

The difference is that in the book, we quickly learn that Faramir is a much greater charachter. He isn't a mere captain. He is a schooled, learned, and wise leader. By the time he actually rejects the ring in the book we have come to admire him. It wouldn't make sense that he accept it. In fact, it is hardly surprising that he rejects it. We know that he should reject it. On the other hand, Faramir in the film doesn't have all this behind him. He is merely a captain. For him to rise above a greed for power is admirable. By the time book-Faramir faces this power, we already know that he has no interest in such things. He is far too noble to accept the ring. We admire his charachter, but his decision is only reasonable given who he is. In the film, his charachter isn't very admirable, but he ultimately decides to make the right choice anyway.

I also have a few very strong hunches regarding RotK. I believe Faramir will have to defend his actions in front of Denethor. This will result in a strong disagreement (similar to that in the book). In this disagreement, we will see our mere captain rise to great heights. In making his arguement we will see the noble charachter that we met from the beginning in the book.

To sum it up, don't view Faramir in the film as such a great and wise charachter. He is a simple captain. The film never suggests that he has great knowledge or wisdom. He is a captain caught in midst of a great battle. It is the fact that rises above his small role in that battle that makes him admirable.
I find this quote of Talimon early in this thread interesting. I think you are right that the character is essentially different in the book in that we know about him and that he is more than just a Captain of Gondor. In the movies we don't know that, and it would be hard to explain quickly. For him to not have taken the ring would have seemed odd in the film.

I remember reading somewhere Jackson's reasons for altering Faramir's character, and he basically said that books and films are different; things that work in one don't work in the other. He said that had Faramir resisted the ring in the same way as in the book, it would have gone against everything set up regarding the ring's power. And, in the same way, what Talimon said above works: it would seem odd had Faramir resisted, considering everything set up both regarding Faramir's character and the Ring's.

One thing I don't like hearing people say is that Jackson made Faramir "bad" or "evil." This isn't the case. He made him more normal; he took away that power of resisting the ring he had in the books. However, he also rises above temptation when he learns of the cause of Bohomir's death. In the end he comes around and is even willing to sacrafice his life for the purpose of destroying the Ring. He is tempted, and almost gives in to the temptation, but this does not make him evil.
 

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