Calculating the Great 🦅Eagles' Power

[Thorin]

Part of me was always wondering about the eagles taking out the nazgul in RoTK. Would such creatures really have had a chance against the evil nastiness of the nazgul mounts?

Well...The answer is a definite yes after the presentation I saw.

We had a wildlife preservation team come in to speak to my students about falcons and eagles. They brought in three birds, a peregrin falcon, a female bald eagle and a deer hunting eagle (the eagle they used in wars).

The eagle has to be the BEST predator and killing machine ratio wise than any other predator.

Here were some of the stats about them:

1) Weighs about 10 pounds with a wing span about 6-7 feet and stands about 3-4 feet tall
2) Can see in panoramic perspective and could see a hanky being waved up to 2km.
3) Can fly up to speeds of 320 km/h
4) Has a million cones in it's eyes (as opposed to the human with about
100 000)
5) Has been known to take down wolves, deer, coyotes and even humans

Now....this made me begin to think about the great eagles of Middle Earth.

Wouldn't it be cool if somebody mathematically and using physics increased the ratio to determine the abilities and strength of the great eagles?

Anybody want to take this on or give speculation?

 

[HLGStrider]

I don't have the ability to figure it out, but I can guess I wouldn't want to be standing under one that mistakes me for a salmon.

 

[YayGollum]

Since that Tolkien guy never really helps me out with a decent picture of how big the things were, I figured that I would go with how much they could carry. The heaviest thing (as far as I can remember) is Dori, the evil thief Bilbo Baggins, and whatever they happened to be carrying. How much would all of that weigh, and how much can the average eagle carry? So at least I could write that the average giant eagle was most probably at least so <-----------> large, although we wouldn't know what their limit would be.

 

[Thorin]

Well, let's speculate.

Let's assume that in carrying Sam and Frodo in their claws out of Mordor, that Sam and Frodo would be the equivalent of a mouse to a regular eagle.

Any mathematicians out there?

 

[YayGollum]

Hm. I just noticed ---> Why is this in the The Glittering Caves section? Isn't it more like Hall Of Fire material? Well, I guess that figuring this stuff out could be seen as creative to the more left-brained sorts. Anyways, if we're looking at two malnourished as well as nasssty hobbitses as the average mouse to the average eagle, that seems to make the average giant eagle around fifteen feet tall?

 

[HLGStrider]

I agreed with YayG and I'm meddlesome, so I moved the thread . . .

 

[Confusticated]

This probably isn't as specific or scientific as you are looking for but right off hand if a larger end eagle of 14 lbs can carry a 4 pound load (They can, I looked it up) then if Gandalf was 200 lbs, Gwaihir's wingspan might have been around 350 feet and his weight 700 lbs.

14lbs divided by 4lbs = 3.5

200lb Gandalf times 3.5 = 700 pound eagle.

700 pound eagle is 50 times the weight of a bald eagle. If wing span were the same, it would be 350 feet across.

I went with a larger sized bald eagle since I used the big-wig Gwaihir. Even a slight tweaking of the numbers, to base them on a 10 pound bald eagle instead of 14, would give a remarkable change, but still over a 500 pound eagle.

This is just size and weight. Don't know how to figure vision and speed, since I think these aren't necessarily going to increase in the same proportion with how much an eagle can carry like the size probably would.

I'm thinking that a gigantic eagle might not necessarily fly 50 times as fast as a bald eagle, the aerodynamics would change. I suspect you're looking for someone to tell you how it would change, but that person is not me. What if analysis shows that such a large flying eagle should not be possible..

 

[YayGollum]

Eh. I wouldn't worry about that. I can just point out that they're actually creepily impossible as well as magic-filled spirit beasties. They could look like squids and fly, according to Tolkien's rules, as long as they had squid-like as well as flighty characteristics. Also, you estimate the evil torturer Gandalf weighing two hundred pounds? Anyways, okay, I was thinking of a smaller eagle, and I had no idea as to how much the things could carry. Your information makes the giant eagles seem a lot more gigantic. How's about the vulture things carrying Nazgul, then? I'd figure a barely there Nazgul weighs a lot less than the evil torturer Gandalf, though.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Gwaihir's wingspan might have been around 350 feet and his weight 700 lbs.

350 feet...let's see...106,68 metres?? Good god!

You could build a nice little villa on top of that thing, swimming pool and garden included.

I don't think the giant eagles of M-e were anywhere nearly as large as that, even the largest among them. Maybe a 100 feet (30.48 m) for Thorondor, 80-90 feet (24.384 m - 27.432 m) for Gwaihir, and maybe 50-70 feet (15.24 m -21.336 m) for "regular" giant eagles. And those are all tops in my estimation (the mean value should be smaller), but even so they seem enormous enough to me to be rightly called giant eagles.

Another thing, our guesses should probably not be too rooted in reality, after all the eagles of Middle-earth had the ability to speak, and perhaps other "magical" powers derived from their shady, but supposedly Maiaric, origins. Thus, they could probably carry much more than can be surmised by comparing them to the wing span/strength to carry ratio of real life eagles.

Part of me was always wondering about the eagles taking out the nazgul in RoTK. Would such creatures really have had a chance against the evil nastiness of the nazgul mounts?

I'm sure the eagles were much faster and agile than the lizard-like winged mounts of the Nazgul.

The eagle has to be the BEST predator and killing machine ratio wise than any other predator.

I agree.

5) Has been known to take down wolves, deer, coyotes and even humans

I assume we're talking about babies/younglings of all these?

 

[Thorin]

Nom, thanks for your calculations. 350 ft does seem like an awfully big wing span but the rest seems feasible.

I put this in the Glittering Caves forum because it something about being creative. Let me quote.."To let your imagination take flight.."

Good god people if that doesn't fit this topic what does??

I assume we're talking about babies/younglings of all these?

Nope, the full boar. However, perhaps I'm exaggerating with the human part. Think about it...flying at a diving speed of 320 km? You could shake an elephant at the speed.

I don't know about the sight thing...an animal that size has to have way more cones than the average eagle. I would say that the big birds could see for at least 10 miles! Of course I'm merely pulling that number out of a hat.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Nope, the full boar. However, perhaps I'm exaggerating with the human part. Think about it...flying at a diving speed of 320 km? You could shake an elephant at the speed.

Sorry, just don't buy that. I think you got a little too caught up in the excitement of learning about birds of prey and seeing them with your own eyes. They are interesting, to be sure.

As far as I know, only the smaller birds of prey can achieve high speeds (the fastest being the Peregrine Falcon), in order to catch fast birds in flight or maybe a quick rodent on the ground. I'd like to see a bird that small tackle a grown wolf, unless it was making a suicide attempt.

As for the larger birds of prey, those that can and do prey on mammals, I think the laws of physics/aerodynamics/whatchamacallit prevent them from reaching high-octane speeds, let alone the 320 km/h you mention. I don't think they have need for such speeds, because their prey is different in the first place. However, I highly doubt they would dare to attack a grown carnivore; Maybe a grown sheep, if there was no more appropriate prey in the vicinity, but certainly not a wolf, coyote or a human being.

But hey, these are just my two cents, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: This reminds me of a documentary I once watched, it might have been The Life of Birds by the venerable Sir David Attenborough, in which they showed a now extinct and very large eagle, reconstructing how it must have swooped down upon a huge ostrich/emu-like flightless bird substantially bigger than itself. I thought it might be interesting for the subject at hand, so I dug up the following: The Largest Eagle Ever

 

[Thorin]

As far as I know, only the smaller birds of prey can achieve high speeds (the fastest being the Peregrine Falcon), in order to catch fast birds in flight or maybe a quick rodent on the ground. I'd like to see a bird that small tackle a grown wolf, unless it was making a suicide attempt....However, I highly doubt they would dare to attack a grown carnivore; Maybe a grown sheep, if there was no more appropriate prey in the vicinity, but certainly not a wolf, coyote or a human being.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tctoA9oCRug

Consider the ease with which this deer hunter took down this fawn at a minimal speed and not even with a dive. Are you saying that it cannot hit a coyote or wolf?

This freeze frame montage shows a bald eagle that took down a fox and a wolf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjPtLjd3BF0&feature=related

As for the larger birds of prey, those that can and do prey on mammals, I think the laws of
physics/aerodynamics/whatchamacallit prevent them from reaching high-octane speeds, let alone the 320 km/h you mention.

Hmm...Ithy, your skepticism is 'ruffling my feathers'

"A bald eagle can reach a speed of up to 200 miles per hour (322 kilometers per hour) when diving through the air to grab a meal."

stats from http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-bald_eagle.html

For the record, I am merely going by the man who has raised and healed eagles for over 30 years told me.

But hey, these are just my two cents, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I just did...though I shouldn't have had to...Doesn't a dwarf know best?

 

[Confusticated]

I was thinking about this again as I went to sleep last night. If the eagle is 700lbs then 350 is too long of a span. That would come out to 2 lbs per foot of length! A proportion that is within reason for a bald eagle, but surely a giant eagle would carry more weight per length. I hope to figure out something better later, but in the mean time I thought I would post to say that I did not figure that correctly. But I still think that Gwaihir might have been close to 700 lbs in order to carry Gandalf. A rough guess based on pure visual imagination for the wingspan of a 700 lb eagle would maybe 25-40 feet.


And I agree YayGollum, no matter what science might say is possible it doesn't prove anything about what really is possible, especially a mythical creature. How much would you estimate Gandalf weighed?

 

[Ithrynluin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tctoA9oCRug

Consider the ease with which this deer hunter took down this fawn at a minimal speed and not even with a dive. Are you saying that it cannot hit a coyote or wolf?

It could also hit the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The question is whether a) the eagle would attempt to attack an adult wolf or human and b) whether it would succeed. I'm strongly leaning towards NO for both.

And good that we are now assured that a large predatory bird can bring down a fawn. Glad that point of contention is out of the way.

This freeze frame montage shows a bald eagle that took down a fox and a wolf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjPtL...eature=related

What the frell? The only relevant things I can make out are an eagle standing victoriously on something (1:19), and another riding down on what appears to be a wolf pup (1:06).

"A bald eagle can reach a speed of up to 200 miles per hour (322 kilometers per hour) when diving through the air to grab a meal."

For the record, I am merely going by the man who has raised and healed eagles for over 30 years told me.

And here I thought it was the Peregrine Falcon that was the fastest living animal at 200 mph.

Wikipedia Bald Eagle entry.
The Bald Eagle is a powerful flier, and soars on thermal convection currents. It reaches speeds of 56–70 km/h (35–44 miles per hour) when gliding and flapping, and about 48 km/h (30 miles per hour) while carrying fish.

Q. What is the bald eagle's diving speed?

A. Pretty fast when they do it, i'd bet 75+mph, although they seldom really "dive".. They catch prey by flying low and "snatching with their feet mostly, not like ospreys or peregrine falcons that actually dive at their prey.

Flight speed: dive = 100 mph, cruising speed 30 - 40 mph

Their diving speed is estimated at 75 to 100 miles per hour.

Seems like your estimate is about 100+ miles off the mark.

Hmm...Ithy, your skepticism is 'ruffling my feathers'

Sorry, it just oozes out of me, it's my natural condition.

 

[Firawyn]

Or perhaps these Giant Eagles were like Ants in a way - able to lift far more than the laws of physics can fathom. Perhaps they had only a...say 15 meter wingspan?

Big enough to be a seat to Gandalf, and large enough feet to pick up 1 meter high Hobbits - yet extraordinarily strong.



And youTube? Guys, who trusts anything on youTube?

 

[Ithrynluin]

And youTube? Guys, who trusts anything on youTube?

A gullible Dwarf!

 

[Thorin]

And you all can just BITE ME!!

I have at least two credible sources (the San Diego Zoo..damn it people don't you think they would know??) and I'm not going to waste my time looking for more...though I might find one or two more...

200 miles per hour and can attack wolves...that's the truth.

Now can we get back to speculation? Nom seems to be working on the right track.

So so far we have 700 pounds with a wing span of approximately 25 meters....let's keep it coming.

 

[Gothmog]

We do have one point of reference for the size of the giant eagles of Middle-earth. In the Silmarillion we are told about Thorondor

Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been, whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms;

A fathom is 6 feet so Thorondor had a wing-span of 180 feet. Gwarhir and the others from LotR would have been noticably smaller. So somewhere around 25 - 30 meters seems reasonable.

 

[Thorin]

A fathom is 6 feet so Thorondor had a wing-span of 180 feet. Gwarhir and the others from LotR would have been noticably smaller. So somewhere around 25 - 30 meters seems reasonable.

The average eagle weighs between 10-14 pounds so lets say 14 pounds for the Lord of Eagles. According to ratio then, with a regular wingspan of 7 feet to a normal eagle, Thorondor would weigh about 360 pounds, not 700 that Nom initially put forth. If we used the base numbers to assume for that of Gwahir and the rest of the eagles in LoTR, then they would have a wing span of about 100 feet and a weight of about 175 pounds. I'm not sure if the difference between Thorondor and Gwahir would have been that significant though, do you?

Okay... so we've basically calculated the physicality of the birds. The question then is...would the senses be heightened or increased according to increase in physicality? Would a giant eagle also have 1 million cones in it's eyes like the average eagle or would it increase? Could a bigger bird see farther?

It might be a good to find out if there is difference in cones in the eyes between the smaller eagles and the larger eagles.

 

[Confusticated]

But I realised right away that it is no good to use the same ratio for weight as wingspan. For instance 100 feet and 175 pounds is a remarkably lightweight eagle.

The bigger the eagle, the less length he will have per pound.