Help with Quenya: A family in Valinor.

[Rána]

I constructed some names, I'm hoping to find some help with the fine tuning. From learning foreign language, I have a small understanding of the terms of grammar structure and such... but I'm by no means a linguist and whenever I try to read articles on how the Elvish languages are put together I can feel my whole brain glazing over. I'm not sure I'll ever fully crack that code.

Anyway, I have names for a couple and their three daughters. If anyone has some helpful notes to offer, I sure would appreciate it.

Father: Laurenandaro
Laurë - Gold (color)
Nandaro - Harper
"Golden Harper" is the basic idea.

Mother: Nólaleper
Nóla: Wise/Learned
Leper: Finger
"Cunning Fingers" is essentially what I'm trying to allude to, but I'm full of uncertainties. I avoided "findë" because there seems to be a possibility that it's an obsolete definition. But there are a lot of notes about Nóla too, chiefly that Ñóla is closer to the pronunciation in older Quenya, which seems better suited to Eldar in the Undying Lands. I'm also unsure about my accents and some of the conventions of Elf-naming (i.e. should I use "leper" or "leperi"?).

Daughter 1: Laurenandriel
A "daughter of" construction of the father's name.

Daughter 2: Nénnyello
Nén - Water
Nyello - Singer
"Water Singer" Accents again and it didn't seem like I should change "nn" to "n," but I don't know that with certainty.

Daughter 3 is the chief player and I've put the most thought into it and it's most important to me that I really nail it down and have it correct.
Father-name: Morilsa
Mórë - Night/Dark/Blackness (stem: Mori)
Ilsa - Silver (substance)("mystical name")
"Black-silver" is supposed to be a reference to the color of her hair which is black as the moonless night (relatively speaking... there was no moon yet when she was born) but also it shines like the silver starlight. That's what lead me to selecting "ilsa" over "telpë" [or even "tyelpë" because she has no Noldoran (Noldorian?) blood]. But I have to admit that I haven't been able to discover the context of "mystical name" and I have no idea if that's correct. I suppose the thing that I'm thinking of is a rare substance... it's silver to be sure, you can tell when the light hits it... but it's also impossibly black. (Not an "unlight" it's blackness returns the light in it's silver radiance.) That's what I'm going for in a nutshell.
Mother-name: Endanecel
Enda - Center (heart/mind/mood)
Necel - Thorn
"Heart of Thorns" is what her mother names her because her will is stubborn, impenetrable, and turned toward the things that grow. I took a lot of time trying to figure out the nuances of "enda" v "indo" v "órë" to apply here, it is supposed be born of a mother's intuition after all. My sense is that "órë" is more like an inner voice, an instinct, the mood of the gut. "Indo," I feel, there's a connotation of logic, the higher-mind, so I would say it's the mood of the mind. "Enda" referring to center and heart more literally but also in a spiritual sense guides me in the direction that it's the mood of the heart. Even though all three words seem to carry all of those meanings, I've tried to separate them out a little more as it makes sense to me. As with her mother's name, I'm not sure if I leave "necel" as a singular or if I should change it to "necelli" (using Silmaril -> Silmarilli as my blueprint).

Thanks for taking the time to read all of that. Plus a double thank you for your feedback!

 

[Elthir]

Hi! I'm going to jump to daughter three to start with. Not because I'm lazy but... well okay... it's at least partly because I'm lazy.

Daughter 3 is the chief player and I've put the most thought into it and it's most important to me that I really nail it down and have it correct. Father-name: Morilsa Mórë - Night/Dark/Blackness (stem: Mori) Ilsa - Silver (substance)("mystical name")

So far I haven't been able to find ilsa in a Quenya context except for a deleted note in Words, Phrases and Passages, having to do with a possible Quenya form for Gilthoniel (without noting long vowels here, this deleted note reads: Iltaniel, Ilthaniel, ilsa).

Otherwise the source for this word appears to be The Book of Lost Tales, which employs an early language called Qenya -- "early" in the sense that it was imagined when Tolkien was a young man first inventing his Elven languages, not early in the history of Middle-earth. Qenya is not Quenya though (a long, complicated story that's beyond my skills to explain properly) and, for myself, I'd stick with telpe/telep-.

"Black-silver" is supposed (...) That's what lead me to selecting "ilsa" over "telpë" [or even "tyelpë" because she has no Noldoran (Noldorian?) blood] [Noldorin -- Galin]. But I have to admit that I haven't been able to discover the context of "mystical name"(...) That's what I'm going for in a nutshell.

That's a fair sized semantic nutshell

In any case, based on my own sense of "sound goodness" (pardon my English skills), I would suggest *Telemmore (primary stress telEmmore). For an arguable example of -pm- > -mm- in name construction, I note Tolkien's Telemmaite *Silver-handed.

Probably doesn't fit with everything you wanted, but that would be my path with this one, anyway.

 

[Rána]

Hi! I'm going to jump to daughter three to start with. Not because I'm lazy but... well okay... it's at least partly because I'm lazy.
***
That's a fair sized semantic nutshell
***
Probably doesn't fit with everything you wanted, but that would be my path with this one, anyway.

Thanks so much! You've given me some of your time and that's a pretty precious thing; I can't call that laziness. I really really appreciate it. I tried to offer as much explanation as I could because I realize that it isn't always possible to translate things exactly as you want them. That's true with any language but the invented languages of Tolkien take it to all new heights.

I appreciate you taking the time to look through some volumes on my behalf. The online dictionaries are amazing and I'm grateful to the individuals who took the time to compile the information and put it into a form that's accessible by the masses (definitely one of the perks of 21st century life), but there are certain hazards that come with arming people with a small amount of information then turning them loose. I like to take some extra time to ensure that I'm not wielding information in a manner that's damaging. (not always correctly maybe... just not damaging)

Thank you again for your assistance!

 

[Elthir]

Taking another shot at things

Father: Laurenandaro Laurë - Gold (color) Nandaro - Harper "Golden Harper" is the basic idea.

I know that nandaro hails from a text called Etymologies (mid to later 1930s and early 1940s). I'm not saying it isn't attested later (can't recall), but anyway, in a much later note (1968 or later) concerning Maglor, the word tanta (or tantila) is attested for harp, with tanta- as a verbal stem. So maybe *Lauretantar (primary stress lauretAntar, like in laurefIndel [Glorfindel]).

I think *tantar could mean "harper", given ista- "know" and istar "wizard"

Mother: Nólaleper Nóla: Wise/Learned Leper: Finger

me and my stupid reasons alert: I'm sorry, despite Tolkien's late attested forms, it's hard for me not to think of leper (leprosy). Not a good reason to skip this name, I know.

Daughter 1: Laurenandriel A "daughter of" construction of the father's name.

I think -riel usually contains "crown", unless you meant *Laurenandariel there (where we have Laurenandaro + -iel).

Anyway, though not an unheard of length in Tolkien's Elvish tongues, considering the place-name Laurelindórinan for instance ("Valley of Singing Gold"), for myself I would prefer some shorter form, maybe *Tantariel which still echoes the harp in her father's name.

As a sidenote, although I realize a "daughter of father" name is not the same as a Father-name, there's a text that notes: "The Father-name of a daughter would likewise often be derived from the name of the mother." In case you wanted to do something like this; although then again, this could be an early Noldorin custom in any case. The source is Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar.

Daughter 2: Nénnyello Nén - Water Nyello - Singer "Water Singer"

Here I think Linde or Lindel or Lindelle could (maybe sort of) work

It's a bit of a cheat, I admit, but if we go far enough back to the theoried stem LIN, there is an old association with water: "Its primary reference [primitive stem *LIN] was to melodious or pleasing sound, but it also refers (especially in Lindarin) to water, the motions of which were always by the Lindar associated with vocal (Elvish) sound." JRRT, Quendi And Eldar, War of the Jewels

Still, it's a cheat as I say, as these forms are really only "song-word/feminine ending" (the clan name Lindar means "Singers"). In other words, I don't really have an element "water" in these names, despite some arguable historic connection. Also, though you probably already know, the Lindar (third clan) living West Over Sea would be the Teleri of Aman.

 

[Rána]

Thanks so much again. I think a lot of this works wonderfully because the mother is a Teler. I'm right there on the 'leper' note, I also looked at 'hand' and I believe there's one that refers to finger-tips, which could also work because it's supposed to be a reference to weaving and needlework. In the end, I decided not to worry too much about modern phonics. Although, I must admit that a Tirion upon Túna on Rye sounds like it might be delicious.

All of this is based off of a few character details, then trying to craft a name that reflects the details. You can really dive into languages as deep as you want with this stuff.
I recently received a copy of Flora of Middle-earth, I'm pretty stoked to have a botany compendium to go along with the literature.

 

[Elthir]

Ah, that reminds me, I have The Plants of Middle-earth, Botany and Sub-creation by Dinah Hazell. Someone gave it to me, but I've yet to read it, but now that I look at it again, maybe I'll bump it up in the lineup.

Anyway, thanks for the fun investigations. To state the obvious, don't hesitate to ignore any/all of my suggestions and go with your taste and ideas. I know I have a tendency to suggest what I would do, rather than focus on what someone is actually asking for, or wondering about!

 

[Rána]

I've heard of that one, I wonder how they compare. I read through the section in Flora about the Two Trees, it tries to offer real world examples that match the descriptions of the different elements of the Trees. It mentioned Tecoma stans as something that matches a little bit of the description of Laurelin. I know it locally as the "Yellow Bell" and it's prized by native hummingbirds... it makes me wonder if I can't make a little sitting area somewhat akin to Ezellohar.

Thanks for the assist, I enjoy languages but I've never had a natural talent for them. It means a lot to get the perspective of one who's more comfortable with the material.

 

[Elthir]

Mother-name: Endanecel Enda - Center (heart/mind/mood) Necel - Thorn "Heart of Thorns" is what her mother names her because her will is stubborn, impenetrable, and turned toward the things that grow. (...) I'm not sure if I leave "necel" as a singular or if I should change it to "necelli" (using Silmaril -> Silmarilli as my blueprint).

To be honest I wasn't paying enough attention to primary stress here, and when I do... endAnekel... sounds Tolkienish to me (subjective as that might be, in any case). I like "Danekel" too, as a name in general I mean.

In short, I like the name better now that I'm saying it right

Note 1: I don't think a plural marker is needed. The compound "Heart-thorn" is poetic and suggestive enough in my opinion. At the moment I can't think of many names of people which include plural markers. Eldarion might be one (but is it eldar + ion or elda + rion), and Annatar "Lord of Gifts" is more technically translated as "Gift-lord."

Note 2: generally speaking, looking at Tolkien's own examples (if available) is a good idea. Silmarilli is a bit tricksy though, as this plural really hails from singular Silmarille, with double L. And given so many Quenya words ending in vowels, again I can't recall any examples (final L plus plural) from JRRT. I trust Thorsten Renk however -- at least to know better than a dabbler like myself -- and in his Quenya course (in German), he wrote:

macili ohtariva "die Schwerter der Krieger" which appears to be macil "sword" plural *macili.
As I say, I don't think we need a plural form with necel anyway, and that said too, the Quenya partitive plural has the ending -li! So I wonder... no... moving on...

... to my last and really unnecessary note: although I think *tantar could be "correct" as far as Neo-quenya goes, if I were to make a word for "harper" it would probably be *tantamo rather.
I didn't choose it for the name above due to syllable count.

Considering which (many syllables)... I'll shut up. For now!

 

[Rána]

In short, I like the name better now that I'm saying it right

I agree! I really appreciate that you've included some notes on pronunciation. You've given me a lot more information than I was expecting and I think that's wonderful. Thank you very much and thank you some more.

¡Salud!