gentleDrift
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2017
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- 12
Note: I hope this is in the correct subforum - I am mainly interested in getting some context for the Lord of the Rings, but the discussion naturally drifts into Silmarillion-material, as it does so often.
This is a question I have been thinking about the last few days: How old was the average Elf in Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring? How many of the Noldor in e.g. Rivendell were among the 'original' rebels that left Valinor with Feanor or Fingolfin? Are there some 'original' Elves left, i.e. ones that even remember the time at Cuivienen?
I find these questions somewhat difficult to answer, since most of the named Elves that we do know have seen the two Trees or awoke at Cuivienen are dead/in Mandos' halls at this time, although there are of course some exceptions: We know Galadriel was alive during Feanor's rebellion and has been in Valinor. Glorfindel is kind of in a category of his own, but if he really is the reincarnation of the Glorfindel from Gondolin, then presumably he also was among the rebels. Should Gildor be the son of Finrod Felagund (because of the added name Inglorion and Finrod's name being Inglor in an earlier version), then Gildor can also be assumed to have been among the rebels, since Finrod's wife stayed in Valinor, if I recall correctly. We also know that Cirdan is reaaally old and might even have been one of the Elves to awake at Cuivienen.
But as far as I know, that's it - of all the Noldorin rebels that are named in the Silmarillion (so mostly the House of Finwe), only Galadriel and Glorfindel remain at the end of the Third Age. Cirdan is certainly very old, but I don't think we know of any other Sindarin Elves that have definitely been around at the time of the Two Trees.
So do we assume that the same is true for the general Elven population at the end of the Third Age? If we take the house of Finwe as a sample representing the entire population, then the overwhelming majority of Elves born before the rise of Sun and Moon have died or returned to Valinor already at the end of the Third Age. Consequently, most of the Elves we meet in the Lord of the Rings would never have been to Valinor, would never have seen any of the Valar and would have to rely on some very few individuals to tell them about these things.
Of course, it might not be fitting to take the house of Finwe as a representative sample - most common Elves would not have to face Morgoth, Gothmog or Sauron in single combat, which appears to decrease life expectancy rather drastically (Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod and Gil-Galad send their regards). So maybe Rivendell was actually filled with ancient Elves remembering the Two Trees, the starlight in Varda's face or the night sky over Cuivienen, gossiping about that greenhorn Elrond acting all noble and wise with his mere 6000 years.
Not that all this matters too much - it just changes my perspective a little on for example Gildor's Elves, singing songs in praise of Elbereth and traveling to the Havens, if I imagine that most of them have never actually been to Valinor and are mainly going off the tales of some select few that actually remember.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this! If anybody knows something about the age structure of the Elves at the end of the Third Age, I'd be glad to learn about it. (Maybe something about this is mentioned in the later parts of the HoME, I've only gotten to the Return of the Shadow so far...)
This is a question I have been thinking about the last few days: How old was the average Elf in Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring? How many of the Noldor in e.g. Rivendell were among the 'original' rebels that left Valinor with Feanor or Fingolfin? Are there some 'original' Elves left, i.e. ones that even remember the time at Cuivienen?
I find these questions somewhat difficult to answer, since most of the named Elves that we do know have seen the two Trees or awoke at Cuivienen are dead/in Mandos' halls at this time, although there are of course some exceptions: We know Galadriel was alive during Feanor's rebellion and has been in Valinor. Glorfindel is kind of in a category of his own, but if he really is the reincarnation of the Glorfindel from Gondolin, then presumably he also was among the rebels. Should Gildor be the son of Finrod Felagund (because of the added name Inglorion and Finrod's name being Inglor in an earlier version), then Gildor can also be assumed to have been among the rebels, since Finrod's wife stayed in Valinor, if I recall correctly. We also know that Cirdan is reaaally old and might even have been one of the Elves to awake at Cuivienen.
But as far as I know, that's it - of all the Noldorin rebels that are named in the Silmarillion (so mostly the House of Finwe), only Galadriel and Glorfindel remain at the end of the Third Age. Cirdan is certainly very old, but I don't think we know of any other Sindarin Elves that have definitely been around at the time of the Two Trees.
So do we assume that the same is true for the general Elven population at the end of the Third Age? If we take the house of Finwe as a sample representing the entire population, then the overwhelming majority of Elves born before the rise of Sun and Moon have died or returned to Valinor already at the end of the Third Age. Consequently, most of the Elves we meet in the Lord of the Rings would never have been to Valinor, would never have seen any of the Valar and would have to rely on some very few individuals to tell them about these things.
Of course, it might not be fitting to take the house of Finwe as a representative sample - most common Elves would not have to face Morgoth, Gothmog or Sauron in single combat, which appears to decrease life expectancy rather drastically (Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod and Gil-Galad send their regards). So maybe Rivendell was actually filled with ancient Elves remembering the Two Trees, the starlight in Varda's face or the night sky over Cuivienen, gossiping about that greenhorn Elrond acting all noble and wise with his mere 6000 years.
Not that all this matters too much - it just changes my perspective a little on for example Gildor's Elves, singing songs in praise of Elbereth and traveling to the Havens, if I imagine that most of them have never actually been to Valinor and are mainly going off the tales of some select few that actually remember.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this! If anybody knows something about the age structure of the Elves at the end of the Third Age, I'd be glad to learn about it. (Maybe something about this is mentioned in the later parts of the HoME, I've only gotten to the Return of the Shadow so far...)
) - 4th Age
