For a final informative view for Khamul

[norrinradd]

Hi everyone. First of all; not only members but also many people from outside follow this forum. My last topics turned out to be a fight rather than brainstorming, and I think that for the last time, we should put the point together by taking the ideas of each of you in a rational approach.


Even if we assumed that Tolkien rejected “Black Easterling” epithet and used “Shadow of the East” epithet instead of BE in the present version, Why would Tolkien use the word "East" again in the present version (if he had a purpose to correct, or fix, that Khamul was not from the East)? Therefore, Tolkien wanted to show again that Khamul is related to the “East” while writing the present version. From the information in Tolkien's sources, there is nothing to argue that Khamul was not from the East. Also, the word “East” literally means Rhun in Middle-Earth (According to UT). Therefore, there is no doubt that when Tolkien used “East” word, which means Rhun when using “Shadow of the East”. In addition, Men tribes living in Rhun (East) are also generally called Easterlings (according to UT, again).

Considering SE epithet (and if you want to consider BE epithet in the rejected), if we cannot call Khamul an Easterling, what is its basis and source? Can we make it reasonable (or conveice) for any Tolkien’s sources that Khamul was sent east by Sauron, that Khamul was not an Easterling, and that Khamul's SE epithet was a misunderstanding by the west? (According to this last logic; Khamul had became Sauron’s servant before Khamul was Nazgul. According to these conditions; Sauron didn't need to “ensnare” him by giving one of the 9 rings to Khamul, because Khamul was already his servant).

How should we interpret SE most reasonably? (BE evokes something, even though it was in the rejected passage because “East” word was not given up by Tolkien)

Thanks to everyone in advance.

 

[Elthir]

My mention of the fact that Black Easterling appears in a rejected passage -- that when revised, Tolkien rather used "Shadow of the East" (for whatever reason) -- was a textual observation . . . and I raised the mere possibility that one epithet might supersede the other.

Full stop -- in other words, it was not an argument regarding "Eastness" in any case.

 

[norrinradd]

My mention of the fact that Black Easterling appears in a rejected passage -- that when revised, Tolkien rather used "Shadow of the East" (for whatever reason) -- was a textual observation . . . and I raised the mere possibility that one epithet might supersede the other.

Full stop -- in other words, it was not an argument regarding "Eastness" in any case.

All my thoughts are the same as yours.

Considering SE epithet (and if you want to consider BE epithet in the rejected), if we cannot call Khamul an Easterling, what is its basis and source? Can we make it reasonable (or conveice) for any Tolkien’s sources that Khamul was sent east by Sauron, that Khamul was not an Easterling, and that Khamul's SE epithet was a misunderstanding by the west? (According to this last logic; Khamul had became Sauron’s servant before Khamul was Nazgul. According to these conditions; Sauron didn't need to “ensnare” him by giving one of the 9 rings to Khamul, because Khamul was already his servant).

My main question is for those who find reasonable what I am talking about here. Thanks...

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I'm not sure how much this will help but I did a search on TTF for Khamul and these threads came up. You may not be able to reply of they're in the archives but let me know and I can move them to the active forums.

TIP: to search TTF effectively go to Google.com and search like this, replacing 'search term' with what you're looking for:

Site:thetolkienforum.com search term

E.g. site:thetolkienforum.com Tom Bombadil

This tells Google to search ONLY TTF for the term Tom Bombadil.

Here are the Nazgul threads I found:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/nazgul-names.16388/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names-of-the-nazgul.12763/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names.6098/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names-of-nine-ringwraiths.2696/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/nazgul-and-the-9-rings.8568/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/were-the-nazgul-actually-evil.23462/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names-of-nine-ringwraiths.2696/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names-of-the-nazgul.8543/

 

[norrinradd]

I'm not sure how much this will help but I did a search on TTF for Khamul and these threads came up. You may not be able to reply of they're in the archives but let me know and I can move them to the active forums.

TIP: to search TTF effectively go to Google.com and search like this, replacing 'search term' with what you're looking for:

Site:thetolkienforum.com search term

E.g. site:thetolkienforum.com Tom Bombadil

This tells Google to search ONLY TTF for the term Tom Bombadil.

Here are the Nazgul threads I found:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/nazgul-names.16388/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names-of-the-nazgul.12763/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names.6098/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names-of-nine-ringwraiths.2696/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/nazgul-and-the-9-rings.8568/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/were-the-nazgul-actually-evil.23462/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names-of-nine-ringwraiths.2696/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/names-of-the-nazgul.8543/

Thanks a lot I looked up all of these threads, I didn’t find.

Is there anyone next to “The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion by Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond”? And, can someone with this book please look at this; Is there anything about Khamul or his epithets or “East” word related to him? I do not have this book, I would be glad if you can just inform about it.

Thanks in advance

 

[Elthir]

If I recall correctly, no epithets in the H&S Reader's Guide, as far as new references.

It's said in one text that Khamûl spoke to the Gaffer, for example.

The author-published Tales of Years states that "( . . .) A Black Rider comes to Hobbiton at nightfall ( . . .)"

So Tolkien clearly had, by this time, rejected the name Khamûl

 

[norrinradd]

So Tolkien clearly had, by this time, rejected the name Khamûl

The notes, about Christopher Tolkien found and published, in UT were published after the Tale of Years chapter in LOTR and these notes were written by JRRT after LOTR. Therefore, Khamul was not rejected, but was added on the contrary.

 

[Elthir]

The notes, about Christopher Tolkien found and published, in UT were published after the Tale of Years chapter in LOTR and these notes were written by JRRT after LOTR. Therefore, Khamul was not rejected, but was added on the contrary.

Actually (and jesting aside), the Hunt for the Ring notes were written after The Fellowship of the Ring was in page proof and ". . . before The Return of the King was completed for press -- probably then, in late 1954 or early 1955." Hammond and Scull, Reader's Guide

In any case, I need no Khamûl

 

[norrinradd]

Actually (and in any case), the Hunt for the Ring notes were written after The Fellowship of the Ring was in page proof and ". . . before The Return of the King was completed for press -- probably then, in late 1954 or early 1955." Hammond and Scull, Reader's Guide

I need no Khamûl

Whether you need it does not change this situation or what is thought and written.

Actually, Khamul is definitely the second Nazgul with the epithet Shadow of the East and Second Chief according to the present passage in UT. Also, even though the Black Easterling epithet was included in the rejected version of the passage, it does not directly mean that this epithet was abandoned because it continued JRRT’s will about the word “East” in the present passage of UT.

Above all else; Christopher Tolkien has already told us that even JRRT’s rejected (abandoned) notes and tales in UT had a meaning and significance. According to Introduction of UT, Christopher Tolkien said that: “... On the other hand, the nature and scope of his invention seems to me to place even his abandoned stories in a peculiar position.” He pointed out the importance of getting information from each story (abandoned or present). Further, for example; by maintaining this will, of Christopher Tolkien, in the INDEX chapter of UT (Even though the Black Easterling epithet was a small part of the rejected version), Chritopher Tolkien stated: “Khamul... His epithets: Shadow of the East, the Black Easterling.”

In such cases, there seems to be nothing more we can do than prevail over Christopher Tolkien’s thoughts.

Best regards

 

[Elthir]

But none of what is written changes the fact that I need no Khamûl

Also, we do have, according to H&S, and entry for ?Late March -- 11 April 1955 that states Tolkien is presumably working on the materials that W.N. Beard will send to the printer, including emending "part" of The Tale of Years written in "staccato" mode, " . . . then making the typescript for the whole Tale of Years from which Appendix B will be printed."

If so, it could well be that this typescript Tale of Years post-dates all The Hunt for the Ring notes. Hmm.

Just sayin' that much.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Elthir]

Thanks S-eS.

And I dare anyone to find an illustration of a Black Rider wearing a name tag!

 

[norrinradd]

But none of what is written changes the fact that I need no Khamûl

Also, we do have, according to H&S, and entry for ?Late March -- 11 April 1955 that states Tolkien is presumably working on the materials that W.N. Beard will send to the printer, including emending "part" of The Tale of Years written in "staccato" mode, " . . . then making the typescript for the whole Tale of Years from which Appendix B will be printed."

If so, it could well be that this typescript Tale of Years post-dates all The Hunt for the Ring notes. Hmm.

Just sayin' that much.

You said that, he was from the East according to H&S, on my other thread about Khamul. When you do a research on Khamul, can you find the word “East” in H&S?

Yes you don’t need Khamul and we don’t need, nobody maybe

Also, the thread here is not whether Khamul is needed in the story. It might not have been needed anyway because JRRT did not give much information about Nazguls and did not need it, maybe he did not care we know. However, this is not about the accuracy or inaccuracy of the information provided by Khamul. Although, in the current situation, I think it more correct to believe the articles and notes which were written by Chritopher Tolkien in UT and the epithets that Christopher Tolkien directly attributed to Khamul in the INDEX of UT.

View attachment 6717

John Howe - Khamûl the Easterling

John Howe

CHRONICLES of an illustrator

www.john-howe.com

 

[Elthir]

You said that, he was from the East according to H&S, on my other thread about Khamul. When you do a research on Khamul, can you find the word “East” in H&S?

I wrote above (meaning the "Reader's Guide" to The Lord of the Rings): "If I recall correctly, no epithets in the H&S Reader's Guide, as far as new references."

That is, H&S wrote "from the East" -- but there are no epithet references (like Easterling, East Shadow, East anything) from JRRT in these notes. Again, as far as I recall. The notes are scattered about in the RG so I'm going from memory when I looked through them last.

 

[norrinradd]

I wrote above (meaning the "Reader's Guide" to The Lord of the Rings): "If I recall correctly, no epithets in the H&S Reader's Guide, as far as new references."

That is, H&S wrote "from the East" -- but there are no epithet references (like Easterling, East Shadow, East anything) from JRRT in these notes. Again, as far as I recall. The notes are scattered about in the RG so I'm going from memory when I looked through them last.

Is “from the East” article written in H&S? Do you have a chance to check H&S again? I don't have that book, and I wonder if there is “from the East” article. Thanks advance @Elthir

 

[Elthir]

There are 11 page references to Khamûl in this Reader's Guide -- there are more page references to The Hunt for the Ring, but I only checked the 11, assuming H&S had done my work for me, so to speak. Anyway, these texts are largely about the movements of the Black Riders, and here there are no Tolkien-written descriptions of Khamûl being from the East, nor any epithets.

In other words, it is H&S who wrote "from the East" in their guide - and in their index "Shadow of the East" [although technically, even they do not use this epithet in the guide itself] -- presumably based on Unfinished Tales, to which they refer the reader in their first reference to Khamûl.

 

[norrinradd]

There are 11 page references to Khamûl in this Reader's Guide -- there are more page references to The Hunt for the Ring, but I only checked the 11, assuming H&S had done my work for me, so to speak. Anyway, these texts are largely about the movements of the Black Riders, and here there are no Tolkien-written descriptions of Khamûl being from the East, nor any epithets.

In other words, it is H&S who wrote "from the East" in their guide - and in their index "Shadow of the East" [although technically, even they do not use this epithet in the guide itself] -- presumably based on Unfinished Tales, to which they refer the reader in their first reference to Khamûl.

Okay, thanks a lot Elthir

Actually, Khamul is definitely the second Nazgul with the epithet Shadow of the East and Second Chief according to the present passage in UT. Also, even though the Black Easterling epithet was included in the rejected version of the passage, it does not directly mean that this epithet was abandoned because it continued JRRT’s will about the word “East” in the present passage of UT.

Above all else; Christopher Tolkien has already told us that even JRRT’s rejected (abandoned) notes and tales in UT had a meaning and significance. According to Introduction of UT, Christopher Tolkien said that: “... On the other hand, the nature and scope of his invention seems to me to place even his abandoned stories in a peculiar position.” He pointed out the importance of getting information from each story (abandoned or present). Further, for example; by maintaining this will, of Christopher Tolkien, in the INDEX chapter of UT (Even though the Black Easterling epithet was a small part of the rejected version), Chritopher Tolkien stated: “Khamul... His epithets: Shadow of the East, the Black Easterling.”

In such cases, there seems to be nothing more we can do than prevail over Christopher Tolkien’s thoughts.

I think that was all clear for epithets and Eastness. That’s enough.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

That’s enough.

'Thank goodness!' said Bilbo laughing, and handed him the tobacco-jar.

 

[Elthir]

What? There will never be enough Khamul! Even if no such character exists!

"If I have been inadequate in explanation or unintentionally obscure, Mr. Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth supplies, as I have found through frequent use, an admirable work of reference." Christopher Tolkien, Introduction to Unfinished Tales

In The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth, Robert Foster includes (in his entries): "( . . .) Keys of Barad-dur, Khand, Khazad, Khazad-Dum, Kheled-Zaram ( . . .)"

In other words. . . no Khamul. Yep, I just blew yer mind.

Now sir. . . please pass me that tobacco jar

 

[norrinradd]

What? There will never be enough Khamul! Even if no such character exists!

"If I have been inadequate in explanation or unintentionally obscure, Mr. Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth supplies, as I have found through frequent use, an admirable work of reference." Christopher Tolkien, Introduction to Unfinished Tales

In The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth, Robert Foster includes (in his entries): "( . . .) Keys of Barad-dur, Khand, Khazad, Khazad-Dum, Kheled-Zaram ( . . .)"

In other words. . . no Khamul. Yep, I just blew yer mind.

Now sir. . . please pass me that tobacco jar

Yes we don’t have to see Khamul in The Complete Guide to Middle Earth, Robert Foster because there was no inadequate in explanation or unintentionally obscur in UT about Khamul In the Index chapter of UT: “Khamul’s epithets: Shadow of the East, the Black Easterling.” If you want to think that BE epithet was rejected to SE; SE epithet was enough to show that the eastern will in BE epithet continued. To claim otherwise would be a lot of wrangling.