Barolgs vs 🐲Dragons, which is stronger?

[Hisoka Morrow]

As you've known that these 2 guys were all ranked top classes for Morgoth's order of combat, yet it seems that Dragons were always his final trump cards(Like the battle of unnumbered tears as well as the War of Wrath).
Yet when it comes to combat performance, Barolgs seem to be stronger, the best proof was that Dragons were killed by both men and as certain records, while Barolgs got the only killed records by only elves.(Apart from mixed-blood like Eärendil and assuming humans could have killed Balrogs with joining forces with elves like unnumbered tears or War of Wrath.). This conclusion is made according to JRRT's set that elves were much more superior than men on all kinds of combat quality in the 1st Age.
Of course, this doesn't only include combat ability, but also intelligence as well as all kinds of military value, fro instance, Balrogs seem to be more experienced while Dragons are better strategists(EX: Glaurung 's strategy that made Turin GG)

So...Let's discuss this as the title says, just provide everything you know or you think, all constructive comment are welcome^^

 

[Aredheldaedraugh]

I think that Balrogs are stronger because they were Maiar and as divine Beeings concerning their angelic /demonic powers much more powerful than dragons only a creation by Morgoth.

 

[Olorgando]

I thought I remembered that there had been a discussion like this before, now I found it:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/who-would-win-smaug-or-a-balrog.9868/

 

[Miguel]

It's more or less a tie. I think it would depend on what dragon.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

But if Barolgs are the new version 2.0 of Balrogs, then perhaps some of their bugs have been resolved and their functionality improved...! ☺😅

 

[Aldarion]

I believe dragons might actually be stronger. Remember, during War of the Wrath, balrogs were all destroyed along with rest of Morgoth's army, yet we never hear of them impeding Valar's progress. But when winged dragons attacked, Valar were actually pushed back.

OTOH, metaphysical logic goes against this: balrogs were created earlier, before Morgoth's decline set in the earnest and were actually Maiar originally. Thus they should be stronger than dragons, both due to their inherent superior nature and due to their creator's superior state at the moment of their creation.

 

[Olorgando]

That link I posted above to a "Smaug vs. Balrog" thread has made me think. (So you are sufficiently warned! 🤪 )

Perhaps Smaug the Dragon of The Hobbit is a s much an anachronism to dragons as Bilbo Baggins is to a heroic Romance tale (in the categories of Northrop Frye). A heavily armored (sides and back) by scales, and the soft underbelly protected by what must be tons of jewels - can fly? There is an engineer's joke (I believe) that asks the question why there has never been a coal-fired, steam-powered airship, and never mind aeroplane? Because it would be too heavy to ever lift off the ground by more than one order of magnitude with any conceivable wings. Why have battleships never taken to the air? Forget "The Avengers".
Glaurung could be a ground-crawling "tank" when fully grown. Could he have ever taken wing in any conceivable form?

I very seriously doubt it.

Fast forward to the winged dragons in the War of Wrath, led by Ancalagon.
If you follow my reasoning, they need to be aerodynamically efficient and have a wing-lift to mass ration that lets them take to the air. Read skinny and sleek. And when things go wrong with any part of what keeps flying things flying, Newton's Laws of Gravity are merciless. There is no such thing as a flying tank (as the USAAF found out quickly when, despite having been direly warned by the British Royal Airforce, they sent their B-17 "Flying Fortresses" over Europe without fighter cover due to lack of range of the fighters. The German Luftwaffe took a heavy toll. It wasn't until the extremely long-range P-51 Mustang fighters were able to escort the USAAF bombers "there and back again" that they were able to bomb indiscriminately. We are still digging up and defusing almost a bomb a day now, 75 years after the end of the war).

Ancalagon especially may have had, however Morgoth contrived it, especially hot breath. And that surprise of these dragons being able to fly. But those dragons probably wouldn't have lasted three minutes above any target heavily defended by flack anywhere in the world in WW II. Dragon hamburger.

Then there's the issue of from what sources Christopher Tolkien took what he wrote in the published "Silmarillion".
Early on, there were many Balrogs, I'm tempted to say hardly more that slightly better Uruk-hai of the Third Age.
Against those Balrogs, Dragons would massacre with ease.

But against the "at most three or seven", now (?) seen an Maiar, that's a whole different story.
I admit that the whole Ungoliant vs. Melkor story upon arriving in Middle-earth is perhaps the one that has me shaking my head in disbelief if not disgust more than any other. But this is way before Melkor begins breeding dragons. The Balrogs racing to Melkor's aid drive Ungoliant away with their fiery whips. Do you think that Melkor would have even batted an eyelash at even Ancalagon's having "puberty issues"? I don't think so.

Would even Ancalagon's fiery breath, hottest of all Dragons ever, have impressed any of the three-or-seven?
Snowball's chance in Angband.
Would the Balrogs' whips, which drove away Ungoliant, have impressed a dragon?
For a few very short seconds perhaps - before they were reduced to dragon hamburger patties, Glaurung, Ancalagon, Smaug, the lot of them.

 

[Elthir]

But against the "at most three or seven", now (?) seen an Maiar, that's a whole different story.

Yep, Balrogs were Maiar by the time of this note, and according to the Annals of Aman -- the abandoned typescript version AAm* section 30: "And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Umaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath."

CJRT writes that there seems no way to determine with certainty when AAm* was made, but he thinks or feels that it belongs to the early 1950s, and if so, I needn't look further to also say that the Balrogs were Maiar at an external time when they were conceived of as numerous.



CJRT's edits to surviving "Numerous Balrog" passages

Despite Tolkien's famed note to drastically reduce Balrog numbers (and its attending revision to a passage in AAM), so far I've counted 4 surviving references to numerous Balrogs. Here they are -- followed by the alterations made to The Silmarillion by Christopher Tolkien:


1: "Wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed, but Morgoth sent the greater, and they were Balrogs. Maidros was ambushed..." Of The Siege of Angband (Quenta Silmarillion) [] "... but Morgoth sent the more, and there were Balrogs." Of The Return of the Noldor (The Silmarillion)

2: "Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of Balrogs." Of the Ruin of Beleriand And the Fall of Fingolfin (Quenta Silmarillion) [] ".. named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion." Of The Ruin Of Beleriand (The Silmarillion)

3: "There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand,..." Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad (Quenta Silmarillion) [] "There came wolves and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons..." Of The Fifth Battle (The Silmarillion)

4. The Grey Annals contains "Balrogs a thousand" §230, but nothing is noted as to any changes in the later 1950s.

Notes to these numbered passages

1 This description (from the QS tradition) survived into LQS despite a number of other post Lord of the Rings revisions to this chapter.

2 This example (Orodreth and etc) also was not revised -- with Tolkien even altering §143 of the chapter, but not the "host" of Balrogs passage.

3 Another survival, but noting CJRT's description under The Last Chapters Of The Quenta Silmarillion, possibly JRRT never really got around to "truly" revising this chapter in any case.

 

[Alcuin]

As mentioned, balrogs are Umaiar, evil Maiar, fallen angels, demons. Boldog, an early villain in Tolkien’s legendarium, an Umaia that had taken the form of an Orc, fought Thingol.

Within the context of the story, I think it can be successfully argued that Bombadil, Goldberry, and Ungoliant are Maiar of some sort, as is Huan the Hound of Valinor. In this sense there are a great many lesser spirits inhabiting Arda as various incarnate creatures of their own choosing whose existence preceded Arda’s physical form. Another is Carcharoth, in physical origins a whelp of the werewolf Draugluin, that at Morgoth’s hand “the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, [so that] he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong.” (Silmarillion, “Beren and Lúthien”)

But what of the descendants of these First Age creatures? Ungoliant’s descendants inhabited Ered Gorgoroth: Shelob was one of these. Should we consider Shelob a minor spirit? I don’t think so. The same might be said of dragons. All the dragons of the Second and Third Ages were descendents of those developed by Morgoth in the First. Are they also minor spirits? Again, I say no. As evidence, I note that Melian gave birth to Lúthien, but Lúthien bore the fate of her father Thingol until Manwë made an exception for her. The same, I suggest, of the Mearas, the Lords of Horses, descendents of Oromë’s horse Nahar, a minor spirit, of whom Shadowfax was the greatest and last: the descendants are not minor spirits, but still great creatures of Tolkien’s world. So also the Great Eagles of the Misty Mountains, descendants of Thorondor of the First Age, a minor spirit: these, too, were mortal after the departure of Thorondor.

Could Ancalagon defeat Gothmog? Who knows? Why would Morgoth waste his vassals in such a contest?

But in the Third Age, I think it is likely that Sauron planned to use both Smaug the Dragon and the Durin’s Bane, the Balrog, against Galadriel in Lórien and then Elrond in Rivendell. The danger Smaug represented concerned Gandalf so that he became enmeshed in the life of Thorin Oakenshield, dragging Bilbo Baggins in along with him. The Balrog neither he nor any others of the Wise had discovered, excepting perhaps Saruman the Traitor, though Galadriel’s spouse Celeborn was deeply suspicious of the nature of “Durin’s Bane.”

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

That link I posted above to a "Smaug vs. Balrog" thread has made me think. (So you are sufficiently warned! 🤪 )

Perhaps Smaug the Dragon of The Hobbit is a s much an anachronism to dragons as Bilbo Baggins is to a heroic Romance tale (in the categories of Northrop Frye). A heavily armored (sides and back) by scales, and the soft underbelly protected by what must be tons of jewels - can fly? There is an engineer's joke (I believe) that asks the question why there has never been a coal-fired, steam-powered airship, and never mind aeroplane? Because it would be too heavy to ever lift off the ground by more than one order of magnitude with any conceivable wings. Why have battleships never taken to the air? Forget "The Avengers".
Glaurung could be a ground-crawling "tank" when fully grown. Could he have ever taken wing in any conceivable form?

I very seriously doubt it.

Fast forward to the winged dragons in the War of Wrath, led by Ancalagon.
If you follow my reasoning, they need to be aerodynamically efficient and have a wing-lift to mass ration that lets them take to the air. Read skinny and sleek. And when things go wrong with any part of what keeps flying things flying, Newton's Laws of Gravity are merciless. There is no such thing as a flying tank (as the USAAF found out quickly when, despite having been direly warned by the British Royal Airforce, they sent their B-17 "Flying Fortresses" over Europe without fighter cover due to lack of range of the fighters. The German Luftwaffe took a heavy toll. It wasn't until the extremely long-range P-51 Mustang fighters were able to escort the USAAF bombers "there and back again" that they were able to bomb indiscriminately. We are still digging up and defusing almost a bomb a day now, 75 years after the end of the war).

Ancalagon especially may have had, however Morgoth contrived it, especially hot breath. And that surprise of these dragons being able to fly. But those dragons probably wouldn't have lasted three minutes above any target heavily defended by flack anywhere in the world in WW II. Dragon hamburger.

Oh well maybe we can assume that Morgoth got some highly-advanced materials, making those dragons's metabolism effective enough to produce so huge energy maintain their flight, or even making their density horribly adjustable enough so that they can decide when they wanna fly or not(seriously). Yeah, after all, horribly tough armor such as Mithril can compare Modern Body Armor. JRRT has already created bunches of horribly military stuff able to compare modern ones.

Then there's the issue of from what sources Christopher Tolkien took what he wrote in the published "Silmarillion".
Early on, there were many Balrogs, I'm tempted to say hardly more that slightly better Uruk-hai of the Third Age.
Against those Balrogs, Dragons would massacre with ease.

But against the "at most three or seven", now (?) seen an Maiar, that's a whole different story.
I admit that the whole Ungoliant vs. Melkor story upon arriving in Middle-earth is perhaps the one that has me shaking my head in disbelief if not disgust more than any other. But this is way before Melkor begins breeding dragons. The Balrogs racing to Melkor's aid drive Ungoliant away with their fiery whips. Do you think that Melkor would have even batted an eyelash at even Ancalagon's having "puberty issues"? I don't think so.

Would even Ancalagon's fiery breath, hottest of all Dragons ever, have impressed any of the three-or-seven?
Snowball's chance in Angband.
Would the Balrogs' whips, which drove away Ungoliant, have impressed a dragon?
For a few very short seconds perhaps - before they were reduced to dragon hamburger patties, Glaurung, Ancalagon, Smaug, the lot of them.

It's obvious the Balrogs use spamming tactic, outnumbering Ungoliant, making them able to take the upper hands at least.
Another thing is that if Barolgs were really tough enough for Morgoth's military operation, then why Morgoth have to create new armed forces?Of course we can assume that Dragons are only better on fighting against elves or particular military operations than Balrogs, while Balrogs got some other advantage in comparison.

I think that Balrogs are stronger because they were Maiar and as divine Beeings concerning their angelic /demonic powers much more powerful than dragons only a creation by Morgoth.

Well...it's obvious that even the Created can kick Creator's ass in JRRT's lore(Looking at Isuildur and Sauron, Fingofin and those Barolgs along with Dragons fled from him)

 

[Aredheldaedraugh]

Well...it's obvious that even the Created can kick Creator's ass in JRRT's lore(Looking at Isuildur and Sauron, Fingofin and those Barolgs along with Dragons fled from him)

It was mere luck Isildur could cut off the ring and it was not clever of Sauron to try (what did he try?) to put his hand on Isildur. It was Isildur‘s chance and a very idiotic and human gesture from Sauron with his hand. But it was not that Isildur or the rest of the armies have been stronger than Sauron, they weren’t.

 

[Alcuin]

Several points here. If we’re talking about Tolkien, who wrote books, stories, and kept lots and lots of notes on his private world, much of which was made public by his son and literary heir Christopher, then we need to keep some things in mind:

• No other creature could defeat a Vala, not even a Maia. Both times Morgoth was captured, Tulkas defeated him, and Tulkas came last into Arda after all the other Valar failed to overcome Melkor Morgoth, apparently for that very purpose. Tulkas was the only Vala present in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age other than Morgoth.
• No one and nothing can overcome Eru. If any creature acts in Eru’s despite, as did Melkor and later Sauron, he will ultimately fail (Silmarillion, “Ainulindalë”):
  
  And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me [Eru], nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
  ​
• Morgoth did not create Balrogs. They existed independently of him, and along with other Maiar (such as Sauron and lesser Maiar) followed his lead in the Ainulindalë (Great Music) rather than Eru’s.
• I don’t recall that Fingolfin fought Glaurung; I could be wrong. I believe that on Glaurung’s first appearance, he was driven back by Fingon and his mounted archers. Two centuries later, in the Dagor Bragollach, Glaurung was thrown against the sons of Fëanor, and again he attacked eastward against Maedhros, the Easterlings, and the Dwarves in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
• Isildur did not sever the Ring from Sauron’s hand through luck. Gil-galad and Elendil beat him senseless, though both of them died in the event. I think – and I am willing to change my opinion if someone can cite a passage to the contrary – that while Sauron was down, Isildur cut the Ring from his hand. Isildur cutting the Ring from Sauron during battle is, in my opinion, another of Peter Jackson’s rather loose interpretations. According to Silmarillion, “Of the Rings of Power”,
  
  at the last the siege [of Barad-dûr] was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.
  ​
  My understanding is that Sauron was down, stunned or senseless as a result of the fight on the slopes of Orodruin.
• Elves, at least, can kill (“unhouse”) Maiar. Ecthelion killed Gothmog Lord of Balrogs without even the use of his arms, impaling him on the spike of his helmet, and both drowned in the fountain of the king’s court in Gondolin. Glorfindel killed a balrog in the Cirith Thoronath, the Eagles’ Pass, above the vale of Gondolin, when both fell to their deaths. Eärendil killed Ancalagon the Black, and quite possibly (so Tolkien hints) Ungoliant herself. If Elves and Half-elves can unhouse Maiar and similar creatures, then I think Men can, too.

If you’re discussing the fan-fiction of Peter Jackson or the rest of the movie-makers, then I can add nothing.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

If Elves and Half-elves can unhouse Maiar and similar creatures, then I think Men can, too.

Yes, men can, like Turin VS Glaurung, in addition, and so was Scatha.

No other creature could defeat a Vala, not even a Maia. Both times Morgoth was captured, Tulkas defeated him, and Tulkas came last into Arda after all the other Valar failed to overcome Melkor Morgoth, apparently for that very purpose. Tulkas was the only Vala present in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age other than Morgoth.

Turin could defeat a Valar(Morgoth) in Dagor Dagorath .

It was mere luck Isildur could cut off the ring and it was not clever of Sauron to try (what did he try?) to put his hand on Isildur. It was Isildur‘s chance and a very idiotic and human gesture from Sauron with his hand. But it was not that Isildur or the rest of the armies have been stronger than Sauron, they weren’t.

Even if that's so, it still can prove Isiuldur is agile enough, don't forget Fingofin also handicapped Morgoth by his agility. Most of all, even though there's no details mention how Isiuldur kill Sauron, yet we can make sure the table might not favors Isiuldur, otherwise he doesn't need to use the shards of Narsil instead of using his own weapon(It's another matter if he used both)

 

[Olorgando]

Turin could defeat a Valar(Morgoth) in Dagor Dagorath .

That would be the Second Prophecy of Mandos, to be found in the "Quenta Silmarillion" in volume 5 of the "History of Middle-earth", "The Lost Road". But at this point, Túrin is said to return from the Halls of Mandos to take part in the Last Battle on the fields of Valinor, while Men usually leave the "Circles of the World". This is basically JRRT's version of the Norse "Ragnarök", so still to be assumed in our future. And close to the end of this version of the "Quenta Silmarillion" is another statement about Túrin: "But of Men in that day the Prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar."
That casts some serious doubt of Túrin in this incarnation still being human, and his being allowed to return would have to be something of a special dispensation from Eru, as was allowing Beren to return from the dead after Lúthien had successfully intervened with Námo Mandos, who in turn, I must assume, had asked for and been granted special dispensation from Eru, too.
There is another even more remarkable statement about Túrin and his sister Níenori (so called here) in volume 12 of HoMe, "The Peoples of Middle-earth", in Note 14 to Chapter XII "The Problem of Ros": it refers back to volume 2 BoLT vol. 2, Chapter II "Turambar and the Foalókë", last paragraph:
"Yet now the prayers of Úrin and Mavwin came even to Manwë, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that those twain Túrin and Níenori entered into Fôs'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar (!!!) among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil."
All of this, of course belong to earlier, in the case of BoLT earliest layers of writing. How much would have survived in updated writing by JRRT himself we can never know.

... even though there's no details mention how Isiuldur kill Sauron, ...

I must nag Alcuin (a rare occasion) a bit for putting unhouse in quotation marks instead of "kill". Though it might be an excusable mistake on Isildur's part to think he had "killed" Sauron, Elrond must have known better, as he urged Isildur strongly to destroy the One Ring in the Cracks of Doom. In fact, even after the One Ring finally was destroyed at near the end of LoTR, this did not "kill" Sauron. It reduced him so much that he was never able to take visible form again, but something of his spirit of malice remained (as that of Morgoth did), even though he was apparently also cast out into the void like his master.

P.S. that Index volume to HoMe (the unofficial vol. 13) which I recently bought has already proven its worth! 😁

 

[Elthir]

My favorite description of the slaying of Sauron hails from Tolkienian Letter 131, which blurts even better when bolded in blue:

"The Second Age ( . . . ) with one disastrous mistake. Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows."

🐾

 

[Elthir]

We can say this much about Turin with respect to the (ultimately abandoned) Second Prophecy: Tolkien eventually placed a large X against a reference to him as a "son of the Valar" . . .

. . . and in any case, in Christopher Tolkien's opinion (concerning which I agree), the Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned, to be replaced by a Numenorean myth, or possibly by an Andrethian prophecy in which Turin is said to return from the dead before his final departure -- appear at the War of Wrath rather -- where the noted dragon slayer slays Ancalagon the Black.

Distinction alert: I'm not saying Tolkien abandoned a Mannish "End Days" myth, but rather that the Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned.

 

[Olorgando]

... prophecy in which Turin is said to return from the dead before his final departure -- appear at the War of Wrath rather -- where the noted dragon slayer slays Ancalagon the Black. ...

Eh? So an Edain zombie returns to slay a dragon zombie??
Please don't give PJ ideas!!!

 

[Elthir]

But Ancalagon was alive for the WoW.

Anyway, it might have been interesting to make this [my] revision to the following Tolkienian-based sentence: "And before the rising of the sun, Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, fell from the sky, and in his ruin broke the towers of Thangorodrim."

Then "the Sun rose" . . . and Quenta Silmarillion winds on to its end, never stating who slew Ancalagon. And soon the reader puts down a nearly finished cone of vanilla and chocolate soft serve ice cream, and says: "Hmm. Did I read something earlier somewhere . . . about a prophecy, given by . . . oh yes, Andreth!" And next, the reader asks that ice cream: "What was her prophecy again?"

And suddenly remembering, shouts "Drego morn! Drego morn! Túrin! Túrin!"

🐾

 

[Olorgando]

Elthir, Elthir ... tut, tut, tut, are you now falling into PJ's trap, thinking you can improve on JRRT's writing?
True, the original from the published-in-1977 "SiImarillion" might not be 100% JRRT.
But it leaves no doubts:
"Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Back, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim , and they were broken in ruin."
Exactly how Eärendil slew Ancalagon is not stated.
But I have a favorite hypothesis.
Having to do with the Phial of Galadriel (this should interest you, should it not? 😁 )
Frodo drove back Shelob within her own lair with the Phial's light; Sam then drove her back underground with it for keeps a bit later.
Now I would assume that we can agree that Eärendil is probably an opponent being, oh, say, about a dozen orders of magnitude more formidable than either Frodo and Sam.
And Eärendil had a friggin' Silmaril! Containing the light of both trees, additionally hallowed by the Valar.
So I picture the situation being a head-to-head confrontation between Ancalagon and Eärendil, with the latter letting the Silmaril emit an utterly blinding, focused flash, which at least reduced Ancalagon's eyes to ashes.
And as all creatures having eyes also have a fairly large opening in the equivalent of their skull to allow the optical nerve to reach the brain, this flash might even have turned Ancalagon's brain to ashes.

So now the dragon zombie may be at least blind, or even blind and without a brain ... OK, I'm no expert on the fine points (or even gross points) of zombie lore, so this may not be out of the ordinary ... 🤔

 

[Miguel]

But Ancalagon was alive for the WoW.

I think he's referring to Andreth's Dagorath.