Which of these 4 middle earth battles is the biggest?

[Turin_Turambar]

In my opinion, the first age armies of Middle-earth were slightly outnumbered by those of the 3rd age. For we have no clear data on the numbers of the armies of the Noldor and Morgoth in the First Age. And the fact that the ancient elves were high elves had seen the light of Valinor only makes them superior in skill, ability, and might. In terms of physical strength, they are almost the same as the elves of other ages. Let's put that aside. Which of these 4 battles do you think was the biggest, the most comprehensive and the one with the greatest atmosphere? I think it was the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

 

[1stvermont]

In my opinion, the first age armies of Middle-earth were slightly outnumbered by those of the 3rd age. For we have no clear data on the numbers of the armies of the Noldor and Morgoth in the First Age. And the fact that the ancient elves were high elves had seen the light of Valinor only makes them superior in skill, ability, and might. In terms of physical strength, they are almost the same as the elves of other ages. Let's put that aside. Which of these 4 battles do you think was the biggest, the most comprehensive and the one with the greatest atmosphere? I think it was the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

I wrote something a while back on the subject and I am looking for it now, but I would argue overall elves became stronger more powerful over time but their numbers dwindled. So the typical third age elf was more powerful than the counter first age. Also, I argue Galadriel at the time of the war of the ring was the most powerful elf to ever walk middle earth. There were also many "improvements" in military technology over time into the third age. Overall I would say Tolkien used much hyperbole in his writings of the Eldar days. I voted for Pelennor feilds.

Found this I wrote a while back on the elves.


Since elves accomplished extraordinary feats in the first age, were they stronger than third age elves? Only collectively. In letters, 153 Tolkien said, "elves and men are evidently in biological terms one race." In letters 181, he wrote, "elves and men are just different aspects of the humane." Carpenter said the elves were "are to all intents and purposes men; or rather, they are man before the fall which deprived him of his power of achievement." Elves and men produce offspring together, and in Morgoth's Ring Laws and Customs of the Eldar, it reads, "a man who watched elf children at play might well have believed they were the children of men." In letters 131, we read of the Numenorens, "they became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind hardly distinguishable from the elves." In of men, we read, "in those days elves and men were of like stature and strength of body," and "there were some among men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor."

Many times men rose high in elf kingdoms and in warfare were better fighters than elves. In of men, we read "there were some among men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar and became great and valiant among captains of the Noldor." In the elven realm of Nargothrond a man Turin was the greatest warrior as all others fled or were killed in defense of the city. Turin did the most damage and stood out. Beren, and Hurin are a couple of more examples of men who did great deeds. So men and first age elves were even more similar than the last third age elves.

"Elves....of a race of beings closely akin to men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically [or biologically] simply branches of the same race."
-Morgoth's Ring Andreth Athrabeth Finrod AH Andreth Harpercollins Publishing

The dwarves of Nogrod defeated the mighty kingdom of elves of Doriath, captured their city and Nauglamir. The "Naugrim passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath, and none withstood them for they were many and fierce and the captains of the Grey elves were cast into doubt and despair." In of the fifth battle men of Dor-Lomin and the dwarves of Belegost won renown as the last to stand firm rather than the Noldor who fled. In the first age, elves usually were not well armed and, as a result, lost to orcs. In the Grey Annuls in The war of the Jewels, we read, "the elves of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the orcs who were shod with iron and iron shielded and bore great spears with broad blades."

Elves became more potent over time as we read in the In Annals of Ammon section 5, "their valor and endurance grew greater with hardship." In the Grey Annuls, we read, "the people of Hador [men] were yet greater [than the eldar] strength and stature, mighty men, the children of Eru."

Elrond said of the last alliance at the council, "I remember well the splendor of their banners. It recalled to me the glory of the Eldar days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled." So the second age had amassed an army as big and deadly as the first. Yet, in the second age, Sauron has his way with the Eldar, sacking Eregion of the Noldor, holding at bay Elrond, and advancing toward the Grey Havens. It was only a force of Númenor, sent by Tar-Minastir, that turned the tide. The Eldar fled the Numonrians in Aman, Tuna, and on the coast of Valinor when they were assaulted.

Elves of the first age often had dwarves craft fabulous jewels, weapons and build cities for the elves due to their remarkable abilities. The dark elf Maeglin improved at the height of its power the great Noldor city of Gondolin's weaponry as dwarves taught him.

In The Hobbit in Flies and Spiders, it says the high elves of the west "lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned and invented their magic and their cunning craft." In Morgoth's Ring it reads, "the Eldar became full-grown in stature of body and of mind, and the Noldor advanced even in skill and knowledge." Part of what made the elves so powerful was that they lived long life spans and grew in knowledge. Over time power and knowledge increase. We see this with Valinor elves as they were taught by various valar who specialized in each craft. Think of how much a man can learn in his life, how much more so elves who do not die naturally. Instead of aging and decaying, the opposite happened with elves.


"Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily; for their bodies were the less different from the bodies of men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete."
-Morgoth's Ring Laws and Customs of the Eldar

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Found this I wrote a while back on the elves.


Since elves accomplished extraordinary feats in the first age, were they stronger than third age elves? Only collectively. In letters, 153 Tolkien said, "elves and men are evidently in biological terms one race." In letters 181, he wrote, "elves and men are just different aspects of the humane." Carpenter said the elves were "are to all intents and purposes men; or rather, they are man before the fall which deprived him of his power of achievement." Elves and men produce offspring together, and in Morgoth's Ring Laws and Customs of the Eldar, it reads, "a man who watched elf children at play might well have believed they were the children of men." In letters 131, we read of the Numenorens, "they became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind hardly distinguishable from the elves." In of men, we read, "in those days elves and men were of like stature and strength of body," and "there were some among men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor."

Many times men rose high in elf kingdoms and in warfare were better fighters than elves. In of men, we read "there were some among men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar and became great and valiant among captains of the Noldor." In the elven realm of Nargothrond a man Turin was the greatest warrior as all others fled or were killed in defense of the city. Turin did the most damage and stood out. Beren, and Hurin are a couple of more examples of men who did great deeds. So men and first age elves were even more similar than the last third age elves.

"Elves....of a race of beings closely akin to men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically [or biologically] simply branches of the same race."
-Morgoth's Ring Andreth Athrabeth Finrod AH Andreth Harpercollins Publishing

The dwarves of Nogrod defeated the mighty kingdom of elves of Doriath, captured their city and Nauglamir. The "Naugrim passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath, and none withstood them for they were many and fierce and the captains of the Grey elves were cast into doubt and despair." In of the fifth battle men of Dor-Lomin and the dwarves of Belegost won renown as the last to stand firm rather than the Noldor who fled. In the first age, elves usually were not well armed and, as a result, lost to orcs. In the Grey Annuls in The war of the Jewels, we read, "the elves of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the orcs who were shod with iron and iron shielded and bore great spears with broad blades."

Elves became more potent over time as we read in the In Annals of Ammon section 5, "their valor and endurance grew greater with hardship." In the Grey Annuls, we read, "the people of Hador [men] were yet greater [than the eldar] strength and stature, mighty men, the children of Eru."

Elrond said of the last alliance at the council, "I remember well the splendor of their banners. It recalled to me the glory of the Eldar days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled." So the second age had amassed an army as big and deadly as the first. Yet, in the second age, Sauron has his way with the Eldar, sacking Eregion of the Noldor, holding at bay Elrond, and advancing toward the Grey Havens. It was only a force of Númenor, sent by Tar-Minastir, that turned the tide. The Eldar fled the Numonrians in Aman, Tuna, and on the coast of Valinor when they were assaulted.

Elves of the first age often had dwarves craft fabulous jewels, weapons and build cities for the elves due to their remarkable abilities. The dark elf Maeglin improved at the height of its power the great Noldor city of Gondolin's weaponry as dwarves taught him.

In The Hobbit in Flies and Spiders, it says the high elves of the west "lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned and invented their magic and their cunning craft." In Morgoth's Ring it reads, "the Eldar became full-grown in stature of body and of mind, and the Noldor advanced even in skill and knowledge." Part of what made the elves so powerful was that they lived long life spans and grew in knowledge. Over time power and knowledge increase. We see this with Valinor elves as they were taught by various valar who specialized in each craft. Think of how much a man can learn in his life, how much more so elves who do not die naturally. Instead of aging and decaying, the opposite happened with elves.


"Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily; for their bodies were the less different from the bodies of men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete."
-Morgoth's Ring Laws and Customs of the Eldar

I totally agree with you. Elves have gained strength and stamina over time through experience. That's why the 3rd age elves were just inferior to the ancient elves in skill and ability. Seeing the light of Valinor and being a high elf increases skill and ability. It has nothing to do with physical strength.

 

[Olorgando]

I just noticed one thing.
It's all very nice to hypothesize about the Elves through the ages (about which I definitely disagree with you), but there were no Elves present at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields except for Legolas.
At Gondolin, it was the other way around: all Elven warriors except for Tuor.
At the battles of Sudden Flame and Unnumbered Tears, the forces opposing Morgoth consisted of Elven units and Edain Units, but I know of no writing that gives plausible relative strengths, at least in terms of numbers of warriors.
So these battles are difficult to compare, to say the least.

 

[1stvermont]

I totally agree with you. Elves have gained strength and stamina over time through experience. That's why the 3rd age elves were just inferior to the ancient elves in skill and ability. Seeing the light of Valinor and being a high elf increases skill and ability. It has nothing to do with physical strength.

If I am not mistaken the effects of one seeing the light of Valinor [Galadrieal did] wore off and it never specified how much of a gain it was. And craftsmanship even in Valinor perhaps is overrated since the elves improved on the valar's crafting [think Feanor and Galadriel here]

"Now the Noldor took delight in all lore and crafts, and Aule and his folk came often among them. Yet such skill had Iluvatar granted to them that in many matters.....they soon surpassed their teachers....and all the Valar were enriched by their labors."
-Morgoth's Ring Annals of Ammon Section 4 Harpercollins Publishers 1993

So I disagree that the craftsmanship was lost among the elves at least among the remaining Noldor and I think we agree the elves within ME gained in all ways over time. Here is some stuff I had written on third age increases in power/overtime and much of it focuses on craftsmanship.


Ignore Below if you Like it is on Third age Power Increasing

Individually, Noldor elves such as Glorfindel and Galadriel increased in power drastically. And Noldor elves returning to Middle-earth itself was a power increase. The Noldor elves dwindled, that is true, but the silvan elves and men increased after the first age. In Unfinished Tales, we read in the second age, "the numbers of the silvan elves grew again... man also were increasing in numbers and power."

Crafting as well saw improvements. In the second age, "the smiths of Ost-in-edil surpassed all that they had conceived before. They made the rings of power." In The Hobbit, we read the dwarves of Erebor were "at the height of their wealth and skill." In Rivendell before the council of Elrond, Gloin says the dwarves "in mining and building we have surpassed the old days." Gloin said his people decided they were ready to recapture Moria, "now, at last, we had the power and numbers to return." Minas Tirith was built by the Numonrians yet it was improved by the dwarves; as we read in The peoples of Middle-earth The Tale of Years of the third age, "the reign of King Aragorn was long and glorious. In his time, Minas Tirith was rebuilt and made stronger and fairer than before, for the king had the assistance of the stone rights of Erebor." All the earlier ages, great castles would translate to the third age as well. The increase in fortresses made like Isengard, Minas Ithuil, the black gate, Minas Tirith, Barad Dur, Helms Deep, The Seats of Seeing, Echor Rammas, Weathertop, and others was created or improved over time.

Another aspect of Tolkiens is the increase in wisdom and power over time; often, the older the being, the wiser and more powerful it becomes. Frodo on Gandalf the Grey's return to the Shire observed his "face more lined with care and wisdom." Sauron in the second age became more powerful than Melkor in the first age, yet Sauron in the third age grew even more significant. We read in of the rings of power in the third age, "the shadow returned and its power increased...now the shadow grew even greater."

Numenoreans are another example of how power increases over time. As we read in Akallabeth the "Dunedain....increased in stature both of mind and body." Among the Numanorians came "Eonwe among them and taught them and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed....grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the firstborn than any other of the kindred of men." Tolkien writes in letters 131 that "meanwhile Númenor has grown in wealth, wisdom, and glory, under its line of great kings of long life, directly descended from Elros, Earendil's son, brother of Elrond."Overtime, an increase in power was common.

There were various technological advancements in the third age. Siege equipment saw a giant leap. Mordor created the massive battering ram Grond for the siege of Minas Tirith. Siege towers, catapults, ladders, ballistic, grappling hooks were used and not seen in the first ages. Saruman created some form of bomb or explosive to use at Helms Deep. Saruman also created napalm and used it to kill an ent during the ents attack on Orthanc.

There were breeding improvements in the third age, such as Saruman's breeding of the Uruk-hai superior to the existing orcs. As well the trolls were bred in the third age, the trolls "no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons." It was in the third age they became a powerful and useful weapon for Sauron. Sauron also improved a breed of trolls, the Olog-hai, over any in the first ages.

"In their beginning... the Eldar days, these were creatures of dull and impish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them, what they could learn, and increasing their wits and wildness."
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed Morgoth's Ring HarperCollinsPublishers 2015

The Haradrim domesticated the Mumakil in the third age and used them in warfare. Gandalf says Shoadofax was the "best of horses," and he utilized Shadowfax speed to great use in the two towers. The Nazgul were bred and fed foul meats by Sauron in the third age to enlarge them and gave them to the ringwraiths. When Legolas saw one, he cried, "what new terror is this." In Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, we read that "dragons reappeared" and grew in number and even great dragons returned like Smaug. Smaug, who grew in power overtime, "I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong."

"They [Istari] belonged solely to the third age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came."
-Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth The Istari Ballantine Books NY 1988

The five wizards came to Middle-earth during the third age adding great power to the age. Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White was also a drastic increase in power. Other advancements in the latter ages include the rings of power used by Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. The nine rings of men and the ringwraiths, the dwarven rings owned by Sauron. Sauron's use of the Plantir to try and control others' thoughts is another.

The rise of Mordor to great power is yet another example. Mordor grew to such power in the third age that Treebeard said, "If Sauron of old destroyed the gardens [brown lands] the enemy today seems likely to wither all the woods." Mordors's power in the third age was such that Elrond says, "if I had a host of elves in armor of the Eldar days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor." When the Witch King leads his army out of Minas Morgul we read "so great an army never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's night" and "no-host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the fords of Anduin, and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth." Denethor said the stoke against Minas Tirith was but only one finger in the hand of Sauron now moving against the free peoples. He told Gandalf, "you may triumph on the fields of Pelennor for a day, but against the power that has now arisen, there is no victory." Gandalf actually agreed with Denethor, saying In the last debate to the free peoples' leaders to "ponder the truth in these words." Barely had they beat off the first strike, and they couldn't withstand another. Sauron had kept a more significant part of his army in Mordor because he hastened his attack due to Aragorn. He also sent forces to attack Lorien, the Gondorian coastline, and Dale.

More examples come from the dead men of dunharrow being put into action. The ents uniting for the attack on Isengard as they found their numbers strong seems many trees had become ents. The awakening of the Balrog in Moria, the reforging of Anduril, and the emergence of mankind uniting under Aragon who made Minas Tirith "more fair than it had ever been, even in the days of its first glory." The Nazgul, who is said in of the rings of power and the third age, were "the mightiest of Sauron's servants" and the strongest of them all the witch king himself. Warg riders first appeared at the five armies' battle and were used by misty mountains and Isengard after.

In general increase takes place over time. Think of how much the hobbits grew through the war of the ring. If they remained in the Shire, they would have stayed as ordinary hobbits and could not have done anything with the ruffians. But they grew in power and were able to overthrow ruffians and Saruman, a maiar, because of all they had learned and experienced.

The first ages are seen as more powerful because of the valar and maiar who were all but lost due to the earth's remaking after the assault on Valinor by the Numonrians in the second age. But if we look just at Middle-earth itself, then the loss of valar is not as significant as assumed.

The valar resided in paradise, not Middle-earth. They rarely came to Middle-earth and only fought once in the first age and none in the second. In appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, we read Orome "alone of the valar came often to Middle-earth in the Eldar days." So the only valar lost would be Melkor, who was captured by the valar at the end of the first age. Yet, he was surpassed by Sauron's power by the second age.

If we look at the maiar who resided in Middle-earth for each age, it might surprise many—taking the conservative view here of Maiar as only those directly stated as being maiar. Rather than some who hold a more liberal view making eagles, ents, Ungoliant, Huan, Shelob, and some other creatures thrown in that category. It can't be disproved, but unless Tolkien made it clear, or there is an excellent reason, I stick to who he confirmed as maiar. So in the third age, the maiar are the 5 wizards, Sauron, the Balrog [perhaps 1 or 2 more still in hiding "the Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth" making a total confirmed of at least 7. Perhaps also Tom and Goldberry.

The first age powers are Melian [for a time], Ossë, Ulmo [along coasts and waterways], Sauron, and the balrogs. That gives 4 plus the balrogs. If we hold to the 3-7 balrogs in total, then that would bring the total to as low as 7.

The second age has fewer Sauron and the surviving balrogs as few as 1, Durin's Bane. Thus we do not see a drastic decrease in power with the maiar and valar regarding those who live in, or visit Middle-earth. And it seems to increase over the second age. As we read of the second age in Akallabeth, "Middle-earth went backward and light and wisdom faded."

 

[m4r35n357]

Siege of Gondor bigger than Unnumbered Tears? Something stronger than pipe-weed methinks . . . .

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Siege of Gondor bigger than Unnumbered Tears? Something stronger than pipe-weed methinks . . . .

It's not just the siege of Gondor. It gets bigger if we include the battle of the Pelennor Fields in the battle. There were countless orc trolls, catapult wargs and haradrim soldiers in the siege of Gondor.

 

[Olorgando]

The Pelennor Fields, enclosed by the Rammas Echor, had a diameter of perhaps 12 miles or less. That's about the same size as the Vale of Tumladen surrounding Gondolin
The highlands of Dorthonion separating Doriath from the plains south of Thangorodrim had an west-east expanse of perhaps 200 miles.
The battles of Sudden Flame and Unnumbered Tears took place on the western and eastern ends. The western end was hemmed in more by mountains, but several times the size of the Pelennor Fields. The eastern end, the Marches of Maedhros, was vastly larger, totally dwarfing the Pelennor Fields. Thus the forces on both sides were very probably vastly larger than what could have fought at the Pelennor Fields.
Don't be fooled by what PJ had as forces attacking Minas Tirith, which were about 200,000, one of PJ's huge exaggerations.
Even for Gondolin, which was quite a bit larger than Minas Tirith, and manned by First-Age Noldor, the defending forces were certainly hugely more powerful than the defenders of Minas Tirith, Gondor having by then been declining for well over a thousand years - and Minas Tirith not having received nearly as many reinforcements from the fiefs as they hoped for. The attacking forces at Gondolin needed Balrogs and those strange "dragons", and probably huge numbers of Orcs, to be able to defeat the defenders of Gondolin.

No, Pelennor Fields come in a distant last of the four battles mentioned.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

The Pelennor Fields, enclosed by the Rammas Echor, had a diameter of perhaps 12 miles or less. That's about the same size as the Vale of Tumladen surrounding Gondolin
The highlands of Dorthonion separating Doriath from the plains south of Thangorodrim had an west-east expanse of perhaps 200 miles.
The battles of Sudden Flame and Unnumbered Tears took place on the western and eastern ends. The western end was hemmed in more by mountains, but several times the size of the Pelennor Fields. The eastern end, the Marches of Maedhros, was vastly larger, totally dwarfing the Pelennor Fields. Thus the forces on both sides were very probably vastly larger than what could have fought at the Pelennor Fields.
Don't be fooled by what PJ had as forces attacking Minas Tirith, which were about 200,000, one of PJ's huge exaggerations.
Even for Gondolin, which was quite a bit larger than Minas Tirith, and manned by First-Age Noldor, the defending forces were certainly hugely more powerful than the defenders of Minas Tirith, Gondor having by then been declining for well over a thousand years - and Minas Tirith not having received nearly as many reinforcements from the fiefs as they hoped for. The attacking forces at Gondolin needed Balrogs and those strange "dragons", and probably huge numbers of Orcs, to be able to defeat the defenders of Gondolin.

No, Pelennor Fields come in a distant last of the four battles mentioned.

I know minas tirith was bigger than the gondolin. also in the movie the return of the king the land of the pelennor fields and then the arrival of the mumakils and the army of the dead besides the wargs olog-hais and fellbeasts all of these make the battle of the pelennor fields bigger than the others in terms of land and atmosphere. I think the battle of the Pelennor Fields was bigger than the others. Also, as you said, there were exactly 200,000 Orcs in the siege. This may even be more than Morgoth's armies. And why do you interpret battles according to the book and not the movie? I like Jackson. But I guess you and the other commentators don't like he much.

 

[Olorgando]

And why do you interpret battles according to the book and not the movie? I like Jackson. But I guess you and the other commentators don't like he much.

To put it harshly, this is one of the many occasions where I consider Peter Jackson's deformation of his source, the book, to be garbage.

Maybe you overlooked the fact that you posted in the Forum "The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien / The History of Middle-earth". This is a books section. If you want to discuss the films, the Forum "Tolkien Media" would be the right place.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

To put it harshly, this is one of the many occasions where I consider Peter Jackson's deformation of his source, the book, to be garbage.

Maybe you overlooked the fact that you posted in the Forum "The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien / The History of Middle-earth". This is a books section. If you want to discuss the films, the Forum "Tolkien Media" would be the right place.

you're right, but since none of the other battles on this subject have had a movie yet, that's why I opened the topic here. By the way, I have a question. Why did peter jackson change the books so much despite the reactions of middle earth fans? for the audience?

 

[Olorgando]

I know minas tirith was bigger than the gondolin.

At least Karen Wynn Fonstad, in her Atlas of Middle-earth, has them approximately the same size, with Gondolin sightly larger.
But Gondolin was built on the flattened top of a hill while Minas Tirith rose up the Hill of Guard in seven levels, and quite steeply, with only the top level flattened. And JRRT describes that many of the buildings in Minas Tirith at the time Gandalf and Pippin arrived there were no longer inhabited. Gondolin at the time of the attack was at the peak of its power.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

At least Karen Wynn Fonstad, in her Atlas of Middle-earth, has them approximately the same size, with Gondolin sightly larger.
But Gondolin was built on the flattened top of a hill while Minas Tirith rose up the Hill of Guard in seven levels, and quite steeply, with only the top level flattened. And JRRT describes that many of the buildings in Minas Tirith at the time Gandalf and Pippin arrived there were no longer inhabited. Gondolin at the time of the attack was at the peak of its power.

The population of minas tirith may be more than the gondolin. because the 3rd era was the age of all humans. In the siege of minas tirith the people were much stronger than the people of the first age.

 

[Olorgando]

you're right, but since none of the other battles on this subject have had a movie yet, that's why I opened the topic here. By the way, I have a question. Why did peter jackson change the books so much despite the reactions of middle earth fans? for the audience?

Oh dear!
Here I must really ask you to take a look at what was posted in that Forum "Tolkien Media", sub-forum "New Line Cinema's 'LOTR' Trilogy ... and Beyond", and there "Tolkien's versus Jackson's 'LOTR'". I'm simply not able to compress all of the arguments there. I'm certain I have not read all of them, not nearly. About 13,600 just for JRRT vs. PJ, and over 11,000 for each of the three films ...

The population of minas tirith may be more than the gondolin. because the 3rd era was the age of all humans. In the siege of minas tirith the people were much stronger than the people of the first age.

Here I totally disagree with you, and much of what 1stvermont has posted.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Here I totally disagree with you, and much of what 1stvermont has posted.

But most of what he said is true. If you disagree, I respect you.no problem.

 

[Olorgando]

But most of what he said is true. If you disagree, I respect you.no problem.

1stvermont and I disagree vehemently on quite a few things, and we both know it.

 

[1stvermont]

1stvermont and I disagree vehemently on quite a few things, and we both know it.

Never have truer words been spoken. Yet I respect your lore and perspective even if I find your love of democracy distasteful at best. You generally run on the more standard understanding of ME where I differ at points.

It's not just the siege of Gondor. It gets bigger if we include the battle of the Pelennor Fields in the battle. There were countless orc trolls, catapult wargs and haradrim soldiers in the siege of Gondor.

If we look at it as a wider campaign as you seem to have done it includes the corsairs of umbar attacking the gondorian coast, the dead men of dunharrow, 6,000 rohhirm, Dunedain from the north [elronds sons as well] troops from rhun and Khand, a wizard of no little importance Gandalf the white, Nazgul, the witch king, Easterlings, giant eagles, half trolls, trolls [more powerful than earlier ages], haradrim with their domesticated mumakil etc

All these battles are massive and since we don't have a very accurate numbering its hard to say. But as to importance, I think the Pelennor Fields wins the day since eventually, the valar would come to the rescue no matter the outcomes in the first age. It was just delayed time until things got bad enough they would be stirred into action.

 

[Olorgando]

If we look at it as a wider campaign ...

That's a different matter. The wider campaign would include the attacks on Lothlórien, Thranduil's realm, and Dale and Erebor. The Ents' second intervention, destroying the forces sent to block the Rohirrim, which is why the latter needed the aid of Ghân-buri-Ghân and his Woses to circumvent this force, which then could have wreaked havoc in Rohan. Did I forget anything? Did the Beornings have to fight anybody?

But that's not the question of the poll. The three battles of Beleriand were just that. There was very little siege at Gondolin, a classical siege can last months, but this was over in a day.
That is why I also question the term "siege of Gondor". The only siege, also a very short one, was at Minas Tirith. The Corsairs had taken Pelargir, to be routed by Aragorn and the Army of the Dead Men of Dunharrow. But the (temporarily) decisive battle, comparable to the three in Beleriand, took place at the Pelennor Fields. And I firmly place that a distant last of the four options.

 

[1stvermont]

The Pelennor Fields, enclosed by the Rammas Echor, had a diameter of perhaps 12 miles or less. That's about the same size as the Vale of Tumladen surrounding Gondolin
The highlands of Dorthonion separating Doriath from the plains south of Thangorodrim had an west-east expanse of perhaps 200 miles.
The battles of Sudden Flame and Unnumbered Tears took place on the western and eastern ends. The western end was hemmed in more by mountains, but several times the size of the Pelennor Fields. The eastern end, the Marches of Maedhros, was vastly larger, totally dwarfing the Pelennor Fields. Thus the forces on both sides were very probably vastly larger than what could have fought at the Pelennor Fields.
Don't be fooled by what PJ had as forces attacking Minas Tirith, which were about 200,000, one of PJ's huge exaggerations.
Even for Gondolin, which was quite a bit larger than Minas Tirith, and manned by First-Age Noldor, the defending forces were certainly hugely more powerful than the defenders of Minas Tirith, Gondor having by then been declining for well over a thousand years - and Minas Tirith not having received nearly as many reinforcements from the fiefs as they hoped for. The attacking forces at Gondolin needed Balrogs and those strange "dragons", and probably huge numbers of Orcs, to be able to defeat the defenders of Gondolin.

No, Pelennor Fields come in a distant last of the four battles mentioned.

But i think he is looking at it as a campaign more than a battlefield. Just as we would not take a single section of the battle of sudden flame and limit it to one specific area. If we took the entirety of the campaign in the third age it would actually include the gondorian coast, the northern entrance from Rohan, and the wildmen forest, the path to Mordor, Osgiliath, around the black gate, and the black gate area itself.

Further, the terrain and type of battle will determine how troops are used. The density of troops in a massed siege within the walled Pelennor with a goal of a frontal assault on the city will have far higher density than open fields two-pronged attacks with vast empty lands in between them. So I think it unjust to assume the density matched the same in all times so size of map is an unjust comparison for the size of armies anyways.

I agree a Noldor 1v1 to a gondorian soldier does well, but as I posted I think the difference exaggerated. You are also correct they did not receive as many reinforcements as expected [many did come later as we know with Aragorn after being freed up by an army of dead folk] to help swing the battle. But what makes you assume Gondolin had better defenses than the Numonrian built minis tirith? just because balrogs were used does not mean they were needed, they could perhaps won without them.

I know minas tirith was bigger than the gondolin. also in the movie the return of the king the land of the pelennor fields and then the arrival of the mumakils and the army of the dead besides the wargs olog-hais and fellbeasts all of these make the battle of the pelennor fields bigger than the others in terms of land and atmosphere. I think the battle of the Pelennor Fields was bigger than the others. Also, as you said, there were exactly 200,000 Orcs in the siege. This may even be more than Morgoth's armies. And why do you interpret battles according to the book and not the movie? I like Jackson. But I guess you and the other commentators don't like he much.

I love both movies and books. But I do agree with Olorgando here [sorry that is a cause of boldness and bigness, he would understand] that Tolkiens books are on this forum and section the authority as to what actually took place. Jackson was making a movie fun to watch and tended to exaggerate, just as he would if he made a Silmarillion movie.

​

At least Karen Wynn Fonstad, in her Atlas of Middle-earth, has them approximately the same size, with Gondolin sightly larger.
But Gondolin was built on the flattened top of a hill while Minas Tirith rose up the Hill of Guard in seven levels, and quite steeply, with only the top level flattened. And JRRT describes that many of the buildings in Minas Tirith at the time Gandalf and Pippin arrived there were no longer inhabited. Gondolin at the time of the attack was at the peak of its power.

Valid point, but dont forget Morgoth had all the information he wanted [while Aragorn and Gandalf had folled Sauron, Aragorn with the seeing stone] on its weaknesses and they were caught by surprise, so put up little resistance. Further, Gondolin did not receive gondorian soldiers led by Aragorn from the coast, 6,000 rohherim, a white wizard, a hobbit [yes i went here] dundain from the north, a somewhat grumpy dwarf with his axe, an elvish prince with a Lothlorien bow who had recently taken out a Nazgul and done well at helms deep, grey elves descendant from dol amaroth nor Elrond's sons [see elves were at the battle].

 

[Elthir]

Elves became more potent over time as we read in the In Annals of Ammon section 5, "their valor and endurance grew greater with hardship."

However one wants to apply this statement (Annals of Aman, 5, 163), it refers specifically to the harsh journey in the north after being abandoned by Feanor, and includes a reference to the Blessed Realm: "And he [Fingolfin] and his host wandered long and wretchedly; but their valour and endurance grew greater with hardship; for they were yet a mighty folk, the elder children undying of Eru Iluvatar, but new come from the Blessed Realm, and not yet weary with the weariness of earth."

In the Grey Annuls, we read, "the people of Hador [men] were yet greater [than the eldar] strength and stature, mighty men, the children of Eru."

It's not certain (to me anyway) that this reference is a comparison to the Noldor or the Eldar . . .

. . . but in any case, this description hails from the early 1950s, and is part of a longer textual history wherein Tolkien describes the houses of the Edain (plus certain references to Elves), including both earlier and later versions . . .

. . . and in 1958 (the Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men) and 1968 (Of Dwarves And Men), these later versions no longer contain this statement.

_____

Anyway, in Author's note 5, to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: "They [the Elves] were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods."

So whatever else one wants to put forward, it would appear that in these things, at least, Elves outdo Men.