Which of these 4 middle earth battles is the biggest?

[Turin_Turambar]

However one wants to apply this statement (Annals of Aman, 5, 163), it refers specifically to the harsh journey in the north after being abandoned by Feanor, and includes a reference to the Blessed Realm: "And he [Fingolfin] and his host wandered long and wretchedly; but their valour and endurance grew greater with hardship; for they were yet a mighty folk, the elder children undying of Eru Iluvatar, but new come from the Blessed Realm, and not yet weary with the weariness of earth."



It's not certain (to me anyway) that this reference is a comparison to the Noldor or the Eldar . . .

. . . but in any case, this description hails from the early 1950s, and is part of a longer textual history wherein Tolkien describes the houses of the Edain (plus certain references to Elves), including both earlier and later versions.

. . . and in both 1958 (the Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men) and 1968 (Of Dwarves And Men) the later versions no longer contain this statement.

_____

Anyway, in Author's note 5, to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: "They [the Elves] were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods."

So whatever else one wants to put forward, it would appear that in these things, at least, Elves outdo Men.

But men like Aragorn Isildur Turin Hurin Elendil are much stronger than Elves. These men were the best warriors of their time.

 

[Olorgando]

But what makes you assume Gondolin had better defenses than the Numonrian built minis tirith? just because balrogs were used does not mean they were needed, they could perhaps won without them.

Actually, had there been only Orcs and Balrogs, the assault on Gondolin would very probably have failed. The decisive factor were those mysterious "dragons" (were they alive? were they devilish machines? were they early "cyborgs"?) to breach the walls, or at least the gates of Gondolin. Otherwise the Orcs and Balrogs could have wasted themselves on futile attacks against the fortifications, with the remnants being mopped up by a sally of the defenders.

... they were caught by surprise, so put up little resistance. ...

I forget where the one detailed description of the battle is in HoMe, but they put up massive resistance. Having their defenses breached by those "dragons" was the decisive blow.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I love both movies and books. But I do agree with Olorgando here [sorry that is a cause of boldness and bigness, he would understand] that Tolkiens books are on this forum and section the authority as to what actually took place. Jackson was making a movie fun to watch and tended to exaggerate, just as he would if he made a Silmarillion movie.

​

Actually, I'm one of those who want the book not to be changed. But I think Peter Jackson changed the movie to fill it with much more war and effects. From this perspective, I think it's good because it's enjoyable to watch.If jackson hadn't changed the books so much, maybe even the silmarillion would have made movies.

 

[1stvermont]

That's a different matter. The wider campaign would include the attacks on Lothlórien, Thranduil's realm, and Dale and Erebor. The Ents' second intervention, destroying the forces sent to block the Rohirrim, which is why the latter needed the aid of Ghân-buri-Ghân and his Woses to circumvent this force, which then could have wreaked havoc in Rohan. Did I forget anything? Did the Beornings have to fight anybody?

But that's not the question of the poll. The three battles of Beleriand were just that. There was very little siege at Gondolin, a classical siege can last months, but this was over in a day.
That is why I also question the term "siege of Gondor". The only siege, also a very short one, was at Minas Tirith. The Corsairs had taken Pelargir, to be routed by Aragorn and the Army of the Dead Men of Dunharrow. But the (temporarily) decisive battle, comparable to the three in Beleriand, took place at the Pelennor Fields. And I firmly place that a distant last of the four options.

Did the beorings fight? when Frodo put on the ring at the seat of seeing he saw the beroing country aflame with war if my memory is correct. Dont forget the battle of dale and the siege of Erebor. Or the battle under the trees.

I don't think that is how the OP intended or thought of it as an all-encompassing campaign but specific to the site of Gondor and the after-effects of it. So take an example the battle of the bulge in WW2. That is often taken out from the rest of the battles going on as one campaign set alone by itself.

I can understand your perspective. Clarification from the Op would be nice here.

I was just thinking, since Minis Tirith had seven layers than it does not need the density of Gondolin since it can be stacked up. It could be half as densely populated and still have a much larger population. Plus how many are ready for war in a city that has been long hidden compared to a city that has been under threat and at war for a long time? I would say Minis tirith was much better prepared and seeing how the Noldor elves were caught unawares, seems to prove my point.

 

[Elthir]

But men like Aragorn Isildur Turin Hurin Elendil are much stronger than Elves. These men were the best warriors of their time.

I'm not interested in that argument at the moment. Been in it before.

 

[Olorgando]

But men like Aragorn Isildur Turin Hurin Elendil are much stronger than Elves. These men were the best warriors of their time.

Fingolfin would have mopped the floor with the lot of them. His sons Fingon and Turgon, too, probably.
And I doubt that Aragorn had much of a chance against Elladan and Elrohir, who had thousands of years of experience hunting Orcs.
And (returned) Glorfindel in LoTR scared the willies out of the Nazgûl, against whom of men at best Aragorn would not have fled in terror.
In Gondolin, he also took down a Balrog.
The greatest warriors of men might match an Elven warrior (not the greatest of the Elven warriors), but on the whole men were hardly a match for Elves.

 

[1stvermont]

However one wants to apply this statement (Annals of Aman, 5, 163), it refers specifically to the harsh journey in the north after being abandoned by Feanor, and includes a reference to the Blessed Realm: "And he [Fingolfin] and his host wandered long and wretchedly; but their valour and endurance grew greater with hardship; for they were yet a mighty folk, the elder children undying of Eru Iluvatar, but new come from the Blessed Realm, and not yet weary with the weariness of earth."



It's not certain (to me anyway) that this reference is a comparison to the Noldor or the Eldar . . .

. . . but in any case, this description hails from the early 1950s, and is part of a longer textual history wherein Tolkien describes the houses of the Edain (plus certain references to Elves), including both earlier and later versions . . .

. . . and in 1958 (the Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men) and 1968 (Of Dwarves And Men), these later versions no longer contain this statement.

_____

Anyway, in Author's note 5, to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: "They [the Elves] were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods."

So whatever else one wants to put forward, it would appear that in these things, at least, Elves outdo Men.

Not sure what your arguing? that elves cannot grow unless they recently left the blessed realm? we have third-age statements saying the same thing. So either they were still had the effects of leaving, or the statement is as I understood it to be saying, they were not weary of the world of middle earth. As they slowly became so they started to return when they were allowed.


Thanks for the second part I will loo kinto it. I do want to say I never said men were above Noldor elves, only the differences are exaggerated IMO especially with first age elves. I believe outside of Gandalf the White Galdrieal was the most powerful foe to Sauron in the second and third age.

But men like Aragorn Isildur Turin Hurin Elendil are much stronger than Elves. These men were the best warriors of their time.

Stronger than your typical Noldorian elf of any age yes. But Galadriel? Glorfindel? Feanor? fingolfin? not so sure.

 

[Elthir]

Not sure what your arguing? . . .

Just giving more context to the quote for others to judge. As I say, however one wants to apply it

 

[Olorgando]

There hasn't been such a lively thread for a long time. I love it! 😁

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Fingolfin would have mopped the floor with the lot of them. His sons Fingon and Turgon, too, probably.
And I doubt that Aragorn had much of a chance against Elladan and Elrohir, who had thousands of years of experience hunting Orcs.
And (returned) Glorfindel in LoTR scared the willies out of the Nazgûl, against whom of men at best Aragorn would not have fled in terror.
In Gondolin, he also took down a Balrog.
The greatest warriors of men might match an Elven warrior (not the greatest of the Elven warriors), but on the whole men were hardly a match for Elves.

I disagree with you. Aragorn surpassed glorfindel in the use of the sword. There are writings about it. And Aragorn rushed forward with Boromir against Durins Bane, who was stronger than all the Balrogs except Gothmog. If Gandalf had not destroyed the bridge, he would have fought the Balrog. I think the sons of Fingolfin cannot defeat Aragorn at all. He fought in 6 battles. The sons of Fingolfin have not fought so many battles. Aragorn has so much battle experience. He has spent his life fighting in the wild. And Aragorn single-handedly entered the uruk-hai, who was stronger than the 3rd age elves, and slew them all unscathed in amon hen. I think only fingolfin can beat Aragorn.

 

[1stvermont]

Fingolfin
The greatest warriors of men might match an Elven warrior (not the greatest of the Elven warriors), but on the whole men were hardly a match for Elves.

Fingolfin and Glorfindel I named as well, but don't leave out Feanor and Galadriel.

I do disagree with the second statement. Care to elaborate?

 

[1stvermont]

Actually, had there been only Orcs and Balrogs, the assault on Gondolin would very probably have failed. The decisive factor were those mysterious "dragons" (were they alive? were they devilish machines? were they early "cyborgs"?) to breach the walls, or at least the gates of Gondolin. Otherwise the Orcs and Balrogs could have wasted themselves on futile attacks against the fortifications, with the remnants being mopped up by a sally of the defenders.


I forget where the one detailed description of the battle is in HoMe, but they put up massive resistance. Having their defenses breached by those "dragons" was the decisive blow.

So I am here working off of the published Silmarillion of tuor and the fall of Gondolin. It says they were taken unawares while at a festival also at nighttime as the elves waited the rising of the sun to sing. It really was more epic last stands by Glorfindel and Turgon that allowed some to survive though most did not.

 

[Olorgando]

I do disagree with the second statement. Care to elaborate?

Anyway, in Author's note 5, to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: "They [the Elves] were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods."

Elthir may not want to push this statement as far as I do. But I note that this is about Elves in general, not just the Noldor returned from Aman. I would rate these even higher than Elves in general. No, I have always viewed the Elves as being superior to men in practically every aspect after having read my way through my JRRT library. I'll post this now and go hunt for a quote (I'm guessing "Letters") about Legolas compared to the rest of the Fellowship (excluding Gandalf).

 

[Elthir]

I disagree with you. Aragorn surpassed glorfindel in the use of the sword. There are writings about it.

What writings please? Can you point to the texts specifically?

 

[1stvermont]

I disagree with you. Aragorn surpassed glorfindel in the use of the sword. There are writings about it. And Aragorn rushed forward with Boromir against Durins Bane, who was stronger than all the Balrogs except Gothmog. If Gandalf had not destroyed the bridge, he would have fought the Balrog. I think the sons of Fingolfin cannot defeat Aragorn at all. He fought in 6 battles. The sons of Fingolfin have not fought so many battles. Aragorn has so much battle experience. He has spent his life fighting in the wild. And Aragorn single-handedly entered the uruk-hai, who was stronger than the 3rd age elves, and slew them all unscathed in amon hen. I think only fingolfin can beat Aragorn.

There is no question Aragorn was a very powerful piece on the free people's puzzle. In fact, in ROTK I almost think Gandalf the White seems to take a backseat to Aragorn [especially his use of the seeing stone] and it was only he [aragorn] who could summon the army of dunharrow. But was he a better swordsman than Glorfiendel? I don't remember anywhere specifically stating such, it could be, that was not my impression but I don't ever remember the two being compared. I do remember Glorfiendel seemingly taking over as leader of the pre-Rivenbdell fellowship from Aragorn. But that could also be because it was near Rivendell his home territory.

But where did you get that the uruk-hai were more powerful than third-age elves? they were more powerful than any orc breed from any age, but elves?

 

[Turin_Turambar]

What writings please? Can you point to the texts specifically?

I read it on google long ago. I don't think I can find that article right now. See also; https://fictionhorizon.com/10-best-lord-of-the-rings-middle-earth-swordsmen-ranked/

 

[Olorgando]

I forget where the one detailed description of the battle is in HoMe, but they put up massive resistance. Having their defenses breached by those "dragons" was the decisive blow.

So I am here working off of the published Silmarillion of tuor and the fall of Gondolin. It says they were taken unawares while at a festival also at nighttime as the elves waited the rising of the sun to sing. It really was more epic last stands by Glorfindel and Turgon that allowed some to survive though most did not.

Oh, just found it. Seems to be in Book of Lost Tales volume 2, Part III "The Fall of Gondolin". very early stuff, but I believe JRRT never returned to it properly (that extensive fragment in UT breaks off before Tuor passes the last gate). But I'm not to be deterred from my hunt for that Legolas comment ... 😜

 

[Turin_Turambar]

There is no question Aragorn was a very powerful piece on the free people's puzzle. In fact, in ROTK I almost think Gandalf the White seems to take a backseat to Aragorn [especially his use of the seeing stone] and it was only he [aragorn] who could summon the army of dunharrow. But was he a better swordsman than Glorfiendel? I don't remember anywhere specifically stating such, it could be, that was not my impression but I don't ever remember the two being compared. I do remember Glorfiendel seemingly taking over as leader of the pre-Rivenbdell fellowship from Aragorn. But that could also be because it was near Rivendell his home territory.

But where did you get that the uruk-hai were more powerful than third-age elves? they were more powerful than any orc breed from any age, but elves?

because in the 2nd movie, in the battle of hornburg, the uruk-hais almost chopped all the elves.but if you don't see the movies as a reference, my neck is thinner than a hair.

 

[1stvermont]

Elthir may not want to push this statement as far as I do. But I note that this is about Elves in general, not just the Noldor returned from Aman. I would rate these even higher than Elves in general. No, I have always viewed the Elves as being superior to men in practically every aspect after having read my way through my JRRT library. I'll post this now and go hunt for a quote (I'm guessing "Letters") about Legolas compared to the rest of the Fellowship (excluding Gandalf).

I put Noldor elves above men and elves, in general, yes, Tolkien did so. But I don't think one statement in one area [healing protection from disease- we could talk of dwarf superiority in crafts, etc] justifies claiming that they were far superior warriors to men. In some cases they were and overall they were, but not a dramatic difference. In fact, this statement really just says they would heal better after a battle. While many wars are in Tolkien's writings, not all superiority is military-related. I think Tolkien portrayed life in the SHire and hobbits as far superior to orcs the uruk-hai, yet who would win in a typical 1v1 there?

I think long life and gains made in wisdom and experience give all elves their biggest upside from a ME perspective. That and learning from the Valar if they are Noldor.

Oh, just found it. Seems to be in Book of Lost Tales volume 2, Part III "The Fall of Gondolin". very early stuff, but I believe JRRT never returned to it properly (that extensive fragment in UT breaks off before Tuor passes the last gate). But I'm not to be deterred from my hunt for that Legolas comment ... 😜

Admittedly I have not read the lost tales since it was early pre third age writings. So you can make up any quote you desire to support your position and I will have no way of correcting you lol.

 

[Elthir]

I read it on google long ago. I don't think I can find that article right now. See also; https://fictionhorizon.com/10-best-lord-of-the-rings-middle-earth-swordsmen-ranked/

I mean(t) Tolkien-written texts please.