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Why is dagor dagorath not considered canon?

Turin_Turambar

Mormegil
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Mar 25, 2021
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Some members of the forum do not see Dagor Dagorath as canon because Dagor Dagorath was removed from the script by Christopher. Just because of this, it is not accepted for Turin to kill Melkor. friends, dagor dagorath is canon in my opinion. because it was removed from the story not by Tolkien himself but by his son afterwards. There is no evidence to show that Tolkien has given up on this script. This is just the opinion of christopher tolkien.
 
Some members of the forum do not see Dagor Dagorath as canon because Dagor Dagorath was removed from the script by Christopher. Just because of this, it is not accepted for Turin to kill Melkor. friends, dagor dagorath is canon in my opinion. because it was removed from the story not by Tolkien himself but by his son afterwards. There is no evidence to show that Tolkien has given up on this script. This is just the opinion of christopher tolkien.
I think in this case the fact that Tolkien stopped talking about it and doesn't seem to have returned to it is an indication of it's abandonment. Honestly, though, Tolkien didn't finalize a lot of the Silmarillion (or any of it, really) so you are more than allowed to have a "head-canon" or "personal canon". I do.
 
True, but that doesn't necessarily make him correct.
As a matter of principle, that's always a possibility - but we can't ask JRRT anymore (and his memory occasionally failed him when he didn't have his notes handy).
But I'm interested: who would be your candidate(s) to be more likely than Christopher to be correct?
 
As a matter of principle, that's always a possibility - but we can't ask JRRT anymore (and his memory occasionally failed him when he didn't have his notes handy).
But I'm interested: who would be your candidate(s) to be more likely than Christopher to be correct?
It's unlikely someone else would be but we know he's been wrong before.
 
It's not canon due to my definition of canon (only Tolkien published text, plus P. Baynes map).

But anyway, where is the evidence in the Mannish Myth of the Dagor Dagorath (Battle of Battles), that the admittedly great warrior Túrin -- in this battle -- took on Morgoth one on one and "killed" him?

As others have pointed out, the Tolkien-written text notes that Tulkas strove with Morgoth, and that Eonwe and Túrin were there too -- delivering a death blow does not necessarily describe the scenario you are interpreting. In early versions of this "saying", Túrin is always "beside" some very notable beings, for examples:

A) "Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor . . ." (1920s)

B) "Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe . . ."
(and on his left shall stand Túrin)

And yes, it shall be Túrin that deals "unto Melko his death" but what does that mean? What are the details here? I'm not even sure the myth is ever supposed to describe this fight in any detail!

To my mind, it's open to interpretation, and m4r35n357 recently gave an alternate interpretation (to yours) that in my opinion, is reasonable . . . and so the point is, canon or not (according to your definition of canon), or, agree or not with Christopher Tolkien leaving out the Dagor Dagorath Plus Renewal Scenario at the end of QS, we seem to be left with interpretations of a very brief description, in any case.

And it has always been my interpretation that a Mannish Myth would surely "want" to include a revenge moment for the (Mannish) Children of Húrin, so I don't think it's so much about whether or not a returned Túrin could kill Morgoth one on one -- I think it's rather more about the noted warrior (in his "regular life") being the perfect one to deal Morgoth " . . . his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

Given the right circumstances, I could deal Morgoth his death! And Túrin would likely cut me
in half in about 2 to 3 seconds (or quickerer) if I ever tried to fight him . . . which I wouldn't.

He's awesome!
 
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It's not canon due to my definition of canon (only Tolkien published text, plus P. Baynes map).

But anyway, where is the evidence in the Mannish Myth of the Dagor Dagorath (Battle of Battles), that the admittedly great warrior Túrin -- in this battle -- took on Morgoth one on one and "killed" him?

As others have pointed out, the Tolkien-written text notes that Tulkas strove with Morgoth, and that Eonwe and Túrin were there too -- delivering a death blow does not necessarily describe the scenario you are interpreting. In early versions of this "saying", Túrin is always "beside" some very notable beings, for examples:

A) "Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor . . ." (1920s)

B) "Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe . . ."
(and on his left shall stand Túrin)

And yes, it shall be Túrin that deals "unto Melko his death" but what does that mean? What are the details here? I'm not even sure the myth is ever supposed to describe this fight in any detail!

To my mind, it's open to interpretation, and m4r35n357 recently gave an alternate interpretation (to yours) that in my opinion, is reasonable . . . and so the point is, canon or not (according to your definition of canon), or, agree or not with Christopher Tolkien leaving out the Dagor Dagorath Plus Renewal Scenario at the end of QS, we seem to be left with interpretations of a very brief description, in any case.

And it has always been my interpretation that a Mannish Myth would surely "want" to include a revenge moment for the (Mannish) Children of Húrin, so I don't think it's so much about whether or not a returned Túrin could kill Morgoth one on one -- I think it's rather more about the noted warrior (in his "regular life") being the perfect one to deal Morgoth " . . . his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

Given the right circumstances, I could deal Morgoth his death! And Túrin would likely cut me
in half in about 2 to 3 seconds (or quickerer) if I ever tried to fight him . . . which I wouldn't.

He's awesome!
In this article it is written that Turin defeated Melkor.
Nevertheless, according to the Second Prophecy of Mandos, Morgoth will come back and attack Arda. He will fight in the Last Battle against the Valar and their allies, but will ultimately be slain by Túrin Turambar, the Man he cursed. By finally defeating Morgoth, Túrin will avenge not only himself, but all members of the race of Men.

As you can see, since it is written that melkor was defeated by turin, it is not difficult to guess that it was a 1v1 fight. Also, if fingolfin is fighting melkor 1v1 then why can't turin do it? Do not exaggerate elves so much, friends. If elves were so superior to humans, Tolkien would not have included humans in middle earth. He would only put elves.
 
In this article it is written that Turin defeated Melkor.

As I asked you in another thread (where you are claiming the same basic thing), please provide Tolkien written text that Túrin fought Morgoth one on one and slew him.

We know that Tulkas strove with Morgoth for example, and was this before, or after, the sword of Túrin dealt Morgoth his death?

Probably not after ;)

As you can see, since it is written that melkor was defeated by turin, . . .

Rather, what I see is this: "In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin ( . . . ); and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; . . ."

Which is open to interpretation, and nowhere states that Túrin fought Morgoth one on one, or even dealt Morgoth his death during a fight.

I could deal Morgoth his death after Tulkas beat the goth out of Morgoth!

No, the passage doesn't say that Tulkas overthrew Morgoth and left the death blow for Túrin either,
but that's the point, we don't have a Fingolfin versus Morgoth type description here, but a very brief prophecy -- that JRRT re-characterized as a Mannish myth, and so on.

it is not difficult to guess that it was a 1v1 fight.

It's not difficult to imagine other scenarios here either. Tolkien gave the reader what he (at the time) wanted the reader to know: the Children of Húrin were avenged by the black sword.

Also, if fingolfin is fighting melkor 1v1 then why can't turin do it?

He could. I could. I'd lose, but I could.

Do not exaggerate elves so much, friends. If elves were so superior to humans, Tolkien would not have included humans in middle earth. He would only put elves.

Where have I been exaggerating Elves (why is this in a response to me)?

Túrin is awesome, my fountainous friend!
 
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As I asked you in another thread (where you are claiming the same basic thing), please provide Tolkien written text that Túrin fought Morgoth one on one and slew him.

We know that Tulkas strove with Morgoth, for example, and was this before, or after, the sword of Túrin dealt Morgoth his death?

Probably not after ;)



Rather, what I see is this: "In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth. and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin ( . . . ); and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; . . ."

Which is open to interpretation, and nowhere states that Túrin fought Morgoth one on one, or even dealt Morgoth his death during a fight.

I could deal Morgoth his death after Tulkas beath the goth out of Morgoth!

No, the passage doesn't say that Tulkas overthrew Morgoth and left the death blow for Túrin either,
but that's the point, we don't have a Fingolfin versus Morgoth type description here, but a very brief prophecy -- that JRRT re-characterized as a Mannish myth, and so on.



It's not difficult to imagine other scenarios here either. Tolkien gave the reader what he (at the time) wanted the reader to know: the Children of Húrin were avenged by the black sword.



He could. I could. I'd lose, but I could.



Where have I been exaggerating Elves (why is this in a response to me)?

Túrin is awesome, my fountainous friend!
It doesn't say that Turin killed Morgoth one-on-one. But the point you should note is that it doesn't say that he killed with the help of tulkas. Open to discussion as Tolkien did not explain this prophecy in much detail. It should be noted that tulkas will fight melkor but it is written that melkor's final end was given by turin. I think that a vala like Tulkas would not let Turin slay Melkor without being defeated by Melkor. I think after Tulkas is defeated, Turin kills Melkor. Because if we are logical, If Tulkas had not been defeated by Melkor, Tulkas would have killed Melkor. So Tulkas is defeated and Melkor is killed by Turin.
 
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It doesn't say that Turin killed Morgoth one-on-one. But the point you should note is that it doesn't say that he killed with the help of tulkas.

I (basically) just said something very similar!

[I wrote: "No, the passage doesn't say that Tulkas overthrew Morgoth and left the death blow for Túrin either, but that's the point, we don't have a Fingolfin versus Morgoth type description here, but a very brief prophecy . . . "]

Open to discussion as Tolkien did not explain this prophecy in much detail.

Huzzah!

I think that a vala like Tulkas would not let Turin slay Melkor without being defeated by Melkor. I think after Tulkas is defeated, Turin kills Melkor. Because if we are logical, If Tulkas had not been defeated by Melkor, Tulkas would have killed Melkor. So Tulkas is defeated and Melkor is killed by Turin.

You are obviously free to interpret it that way, and find it logical.

And in my opinion, other scenarios are reasonable here, in any case.
 
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I (basically) just said something very similar!

[I wrote: "No, the passage doesn't say that Tulkas overthrew Morgoth and left the death blow for Túrin either, but that's the point, we don't have a Fingolfin versus Morgoth type description here, but a very brief prophecy . . . "]



Huzzah!



You are obviously free to interpret it that way, and find it logical.

And in my opinion, other scenarios are reasonable here, in any case.
actually, which scenario is reasonable in this case is up to the individual, so it's a relative situation. I personally think it makes more sense that tulkas is defeated and then turin kills melkor. because if tulkas is not defeated then why does turin kill melkor instead of tulkas? I think if Tulkas had not been defeated, it would have been Tulkas, not Turin, who killed Melkor.
 
I was going to wait for Christopher Tolkien's birthday to post this, but since that was way back in November of 1924, I missed it. And if I said anywhere that I wasn't going to pursue this topic, I was wrong. Anyway, on with it Elthir, you smelly (it's a good smell in my opinion) pedantic beast!

Q: Did Christopher Tolkien "abandon" the Dagor Dagorath? Meaning did Christopher Tolkien claim that the Dagor Dagorath was not to be viewed as canon?

A: My answer: no.

My two main reasons are A) the conflation (by readers) of the Second Prophecy of Mandos with its content (it content being Dagor Dagorath and the Rekindling of the Trees), and B) the argument that the constructed Silmarillion is not, nor was ever meant to be, a representation of canon.

With respect to A, I can certainly understand why people conflate the disappearance of the Second Prophecy with its content, after all, the very content is what the Prophecy is about! But to my mind, this can't be what Christopher Tolkien means, given that, for example. . .

. . . in the same general time period [phase of writing] in which JRRT Tolkien re-characterizes the content as a Mannish Myth, it is Christopher Tolkien who points this out!

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared."
This is based on his father's statement: "the marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know;
but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos."


Prophecy gone. And, its content being recharacterized as a Mannish myth by JRRT himself, means (again) prophecy gone. Full stop.


In other words:

JRR Tolkien wrote that Mandos will not deliver a prophecy concerning Arda Marred.
JRR Tolkien wrote that the content, no longer a prophecy from a "god", was a mannish myth.
Christopher Tolkien is the messenger here.


With respect to B above, generally speaking, simply because something does not appear in the constructed Silmarillion (1977), does not mean Christopher Tolkien is stamping "abandoned" or
"not canon" on it.

This is demonstrable with respect to various examples. An easy one: the longer history of the Helm of Hador for instance, which does not appear in the 1977 Silmarillion, nor the much later constructed Children of Hurin. Another one might be a late idea in which one of Feanor's sons burns in a ship.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father had not abandoned the longer history of the Helm idea, but its lack in the constructed works is not a statement about it being "abandoned" by his father, nor is he abandoning it for that reason.

I also believe Christopher Tolkien was too humble to tell Tolkien's readership what is canon and what is not; and The History of Middle-Earth is, again in my opinion, part testimony to that. Not to mention that Christopher Tolkien's first desire was to produce a "HOME type" version of the Silmarillion, rather than a one volume version for readers!

Okay. I said it.

I could go on about why I think it's still uncertain if even the Mannish Myth was to be retained in any "final" Tolkien-published text (that now can never be), but I won't.

For now.
 
Well, again, we get into what one means by "non-canon". The only canon for me is stuff published
by Tolkien himself, but possibly for clarity, my last post is a rather specific opinion: that Christopher Tolkien's declaration -- in Morgoth's Ring, that the Second Prophecy had definitively disappeared --
concerns the prophecy, not necessarily its content.

In other words, in my opinion, with this statement Christopher Tolkien didn't claim that the Dagor Dagorath was canon, or was not canon, he merely claimed that the idea of Mandos himself delivering
a prophecy about a Dagor Dagorath/Arda Healed was abandoned.

🐾
 
I wonder if somewhere there's a reason Valar cannot kill Valar, hence the need for Turin to deal the death blow and for Morgoth originally being launched into the void rather than dispatched as the latter would have solved the future problems. That said assuming Christian elements, having a bad influence is perhaps necessary as part of the 'challenge' of daily life.
 
In Tolkien's Notes on motives in the Silmarillion [text VII, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring] we read that Morgoth was "taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge -- and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is, killed like one of the Incarnates."

He was then thrust out into the Void -- which Tolkien then states may refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

🐾
 

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