Christopher Tolkien was a grave robber and cashed in

[cart]

https://youtu.be/WMKN27xZ_14?t=168 <- youtuber says some wild xxxx about Christopher in this video

Click bait title. But it does make me curious if others here hold this opinion or just what kind of opinions are out there on the topic of everything JRR didn't publish or write word for word himself. Alot of experts have popped up out of no where on youtube all of sudden and really seem to "care" about the lore and whatnot (which is odd considering their backlog of videos generally don't have a single video about Tolkien till RoP was getting decimated by anyone with a social media account.)

So, not a whole lot for me to add to this other than I'm very grateful for what Chris did.. I own them all.. i've read it all.. even HoME.

Well Nature of Middle Rarth i didn't really read cause there is ALOT of very tedious material in there and anyone who owns the book knows what im talking about.. and for those that don't you can probably read the chapter titles online.. and that's EXACTLY what you're going to get.

And well it's easy to say he was doing it for the money.. cause a man's got to eat even if he was doing this for the fans and I can understand some gripes, especially with material that is reedited again and again and now it's my third time reading it in some form. Though. at the same time I never felt like it wasn't worth my time reading it or that it wasn't done without care and consideration. In other words I welcome it all, and grateful Christopher basically made it his life's work putting these works together.

But what do you think?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Yeah, I commented there telling him he was wrong. But his channel is big enough that I doubt he reads the individual comments.

 

[Olorgando]

To quote from the introduction to the 2022 book "The Great Tales Never End" by co-editor Catherine McIlwaine:

"In 1967 Tolkien named Christpher as his literary executor and co-author [emphasis mine] of 'The Silmarillion', thereby acknowledging that he was unlikely to complete the work and giving his son the authority to finish and publish it."

Mental diarrhea by Internet imbeciles is simply too tiresome (and often predictable) for me to bother with. 🥱

 

[Ugluk]

Ah yes, YouTube. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum, villainy, and ignorance (except perhaps twitter)

 

[Ent]

Envy and jealousy cause a lot of people to say a lot of things without doing a lot of thinking.

Christopher was always tied together with JRR's works. Always. And in choosing to do what he chose to do, he took on for himself an extremely difficult task.

Would it have been better to turn all JRR's 'stuff' over to someone else entirely? And someone not involved through the years with his thinking and developments as they moved forward?

We must forgive those who speak these kinds of things without thinking, remembering always that they are doing the best they can with the mental capacities they've got to work with, as they seem to continue to choose not to improve upon their current state of development.

 

[Ugluk]

People keep saying that ROP is based on the Appendices of LOTR but, from comments here on the series, I can't see any meaningful connection.

 

[Ent]

ROP is based on

...characters and concepts originating from and within Tolkien. And that's about it.
With a lot of conjecture, additives, alterations, and pure inventions.
But that's all they could (and wanted to) do.

It's pretty much pure fanfic. And for some, it's probably 'bad' fanfic as they could have done several things much closer to what we know from Tolkien.

For myself, I've almost divorced it from 'fanfic' even at this point, and am just viewing it as a spin-off fantasy.

Makes it easier to 'swallow' all the issues and differences.

As a spin-off fantasy it's not so bad at all.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Well Christopher basically got the Hobbit going so that's all the confirmation you need that it was his mission.


CL

 

[Ugluk]

...characters and concepts originating from and within Tolkien. And that's about it.
With a lot of conjecture, additives, alterations, and pure inventions.
But that's all they could (and wanted to) do.

It's pretty much pure fanfic. And for some, it's probably 'bad' fanfic as they could have done several things much closer to what we know from Tolkien.

For myself, I've almost divorced it from 'fanfic' even at this point, and am just viewing it as a spin-off fantasy.

Makes it easier to 'swallow' all the issues and differences.

As a spin-off fantasy it's not so bad at all.

Spin off fantasy might be Wheel of Time. But this?????

Assuming this season is a success then we can expect further departures from the source in the future. This is the Hollywood way. Even PJ did not deviate from the sources too much initially.

 

[Ent]

we can expect further departures

Yes, we can.
But you see... we're existing in entirely different realms.
You are in the realm of 'comparatives'.
I am in the realm of 'not comparing'.
Thus... our perspectives are entirely different.

 

[cart]

To quote from the introduction to the 2022 book "The Great Tales Never End" by co-editor Catherine McIlwaine:

"In 1967 Tolkien named Christpher as his literary executor and co-author [emphasis mine] of 'The Silmarillion', thereby acknowledging that he was unlikely to complete the work and giving his son the authority to finish and publish it."

Mental diarrhea by Internet imbeciles is simply too tiresome (and often predictable) for me to bother with. 🥱

Right i mean as far as i remember JRR wanted the Silmarillion or at least thought the content of the Silmarillion should be included with the LoTR books? Or something like that. He ran into a number of publishing issues and various concerns back in the day.. I forget why/what this was considered unacceptable and thus he focused elsewhere. Though wasn't just because the publishers at the time thought people wouldn't be interested in that type of writing at the time?

Is there any sense in THIS community (or prior to this community) that Chris perhaps has crossed some line at some point.. I mentioned the republications of what can be interpreted as the same work essentially, but also explain why I don't view any issues with any of that.

Envy and jealousy cause a lot of people to say a lot of things without doing a lot of thinking.

Christopher was always tied together with JRR's works. Always. And in choosing to do what he chose to do, he took on for himself an extremely difficult task.

Would it have been better to turn all JRR's 'stuff' over to someone else entirely? And someone not involved through the years with his thinking and developments as they moved forward?

We must forgive those who speak these kinds of things without thinking, remembering always that they are doing the best they can with the mental capacities they've got to work with, as they seem to continue to choose not to improve upon their current state of development.

Well I understand the backlash of the RoP.. I haven't seen it myself and wasn't interested in it prior to its release (didn't even know it existed till I joined this site actually) and not interested in it now. But the little I have seen is, pretty funny stuff. While I can see how people can be quick to blame the "estates" like Lucas estate is basically filled with Disney workers I imagine at this point. And then some might draw some relation to Brian Herbert and there are people that certainly view him in a negative light. And just in general feeling (or truth rather) that all their favourite works of fiction (in whatever form) are being bastardized in some way or another... I can see how you get there.

But Tokien's literary world that circled him the only individual I ever really thought of as wrong is david day, but at the same time I also don't really view that particular opinion as a hill to die on and admit that his "artistic flair" maybe got the better of him, and maybe he deemed his head canon to be canon enough.. and so it goes to print.

I just find it so odd that the one individual I think most of us felt we could trust to hold the Tolkien estate together and to not allow a mockery of JRR's works and themselves is somehow the one getting thrown under the bus.

I mean if Chris was a problem... I can promise these people it's going to get alot worse without him as the years go on. I can already see the day where some large entertainment company buys the whole of the Tolkien estate and pulls a Disney and basically says anything that isn't LoTR or the hobbit isn't canon and as they rub their greedy little hands together say "meat's back on the menu boys!"

Fortunately, like most of you I've read and own the books. Which is mostly why I have had so little interest in RoP.

I remember reading comments prior to RoP saying "they are going to change the lore.. the canon!! the canon will never be the same!!!!!" just thinking... you people are dumb.. just read the books and if you haven't done that, then you don't care about the canon to begin with.. so what are you getting so worked up about.

But the internet does what people do.. and that's getting worked up about stuff that really isn't all too important in the scheme of things and doing whatever they can to ignore the things that actually matter.. while digesting any little bit of self gratifying media they can to distract from the tedium of there day to day. (Not that I'm any better.. well maybe a little.. but just a little.)

 

[Ent]

JRR wanted the Silmarillion or at least thought the content of the Silmarillion should be included with the LoTR books?

He actually wanted to finish and print the Silmarillion RATHER THAN LoTR. But could not get it accepted. LoTR became, because SIL could not.

 

[Elthir]

I think Cart is referring to JRRT's hope with respect to Milton Waldman -- at this point Tolkien wanted The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings published -- briefly put, things didn't work out with Waldman
-- Tolkien ultimately ends up "back" with Allen and Unwin -- and at the time, A&U were only willing to publish The Lord of the Rings.

But yes, long before this, Tolkien had sent parts of his Elder Days material for feedback -- with respect to a possible publishment [a word?] of the larger work [Silmarillion stuff].

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Right -- the "reader" for A&U couldn't make head or tail of it. Tolkien was particularly annoyed that he considered it "Celtic".

Aside:
How long, O Lord, shall we suffer this publishment of the English language?

 

[Elthir]

LOL!

Hmm. I looked it up: archaic -- another name for publication.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

THIS IS FOWLER!!!

(He could be a bit vehement on occasion)

 

[Elthir]

This be Sparta!

to subjugate verbs in the archaic tense, anyway.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I try to subjugate verbs as often as possible.

 

[Elthir]

“They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”

Humpty Dumpty

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

And we know what happened to him.