How come 🧙Gandalf could escape Dol Guldor on his own but not Isengard

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

I know that he got out of Isengard in the end, but that was because of Radaghast sending the eagle and Saruman's plan backfiring. Gandalf outright admits that he couldn't have gotten out on his own. However, in the Hobbit, Gandalf went into Dol Guldor, where Sauron himself was lurking as the Necromancer, talked to Thorin's father and got the map and the key, and was able to get out on his own (though he does admit he barely got out.)

(Admittedly, that was one of the things that Desolation of Smaug probably did right, having Gandalf get captured by Sauron. If he couldn't take Saruman, there's no way he'd win in a fight against Sauron on his own. Also, another thing that Desolation of Smaug got right was to have Bilbo and the Dwarves actually make an attempt to kill Smaug, something I found rather odd that they didn't in the book.)

So why could Gandalf bust his way out of Dol Guldor with Sauron there but couldn't fight Saruman in Isengard (strangely, he could make Saruman come at his beckoning as Gandalf the White and had the power to break Saruman's staff, something he didn't seem to have as Gandalf the Grey.)

 

[Child of Varda]

I have no idea, and that is a thing that never occurred to me. Does the book say he was ever captured, per se?

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

In Dol Guldor, no, it says that he only "just escaped". In Isengard, it quite plainly shows that he was held against his will. It was only in the movie that he was captured in Dol Guldor (and I'd pointed out that if he'd fallen prisoner to Saruman, that the idea of Sauron capturing him isn't far-fetched at all. In fact, what would be MORE far-fetched would be if he somehow got away after a direct fight, alone, with Sauron. Think of how Saruman captured him and the Balrog fight was a stalemate and Sauron was almost certainly more powerful than ether of those two (the only Balrog that could have stood against Sauron, possibly, was Gorthmog, who was already confirmed dead in the First Age.)

I just find it odd that Gandalf could break out of Dol Guldor, presumably with Sauron present, the same place that Galadriel was wielding the Elven Ring against to keep it at bay with merely servants of Sauron there.

Also, another oddity is that, unlike the movie, where there is a direct fight between Saruman and Gandalf and Gandalf is basically beaten up and sent to the top of the tower by Saruman's magic, in the book, it almost seems as though Gandalf let Saruman imprison him there without a knock-down drug-out fight.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

In "The Quest of Erebor" in Unfinished Tales, Gandalf says that he entered Dol Guldhur "in disguise", i.e. sneaked in; there's no textual evidence he was captured by Sauron, who may never even have known he was there. This fits with the "burglary" theme prominent throughout The Hobbit.

Besides which, as the Istari were specifically "prohibited to match power with power", Gandalf wouldn't have attempted to fight him; his powers were of another kind. This also explains the nature of the confrontation with Saruman; the "Battle of Wizards" was just another chance for PJ to indulge in his fondness for cartoonish fight scenes.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

In "The Quest of Erebor" in Unfinished Tales, Gandalf says that he entered Dol Guldhur "in disguise", i.e. sneaked in; there's no textual evidence he was captured by Sauron, who may never even have known he was there. This fits with the "burglary" theme prominent throughout The Hobbit.

Besides which, as the Istari were specifically "prohibited to match power with power", Gandalf wouldn't have attempted to fight him; his powers were of another kind. This also explains the nature of the confrontation with Saruman; the "Battle of Wizards" was just another chance for PJ to indulge in his fondness for cartoonish fight scenes.

If the Ishtari were prohibited from matching power with power, why did Gandalf do so with the Balrog?

 

[d4rk3lf]

If the Ishtari were prohibited from matching power with power, why did Gandalf do so with the Balrog?

Gandalf didn't (couldn't) matched his power with Balrog, he just plainly outsmarted him, using his power to destroy the bridge, and not to destroy the Balrog.
Later on, with the final battle with Balrog, I assume he did similar thing. Instead of going with force on the Balrog, he made him slip, or something to fall from the mountain.

As for the first question, Dol Guldor was just temporary stronghold for Sauron, and was probably much less guarded then Mordor. Yet, we see that in LOTR, Frodo and Sam manages to sneak (almost) unnoticed by orcs and Sauron. Also, keep in mind that Orthank is constructed in pretty specific way. Not easy to escape if you're on top of it, and Gandalf just had incredible luck... well.. maybe Eru pushed his luck just a tiny bit.

 

[Olorgando]

From Appendix B, Tale of Years for the Third Age:

2063
Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East. The Watchful Peace begins.
...
2460
The Watchful Peace ends. Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur.

So over 2000 years after losing his One Ring, Sauron appears to have thought it better not to confront Gandalf!

2850
Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir. He finds Thrain and receives the key of Erebor (and Thror's map?). Thrain dies in Dol Guldur.

One of the most problematic entries in the Tale of Years. How could Gandalf, if in disguise, have entered Dol Guldur and discovered things about Sauron without Sauron discovering him? And never mind Gandalf making into Dol Guldur's dungeons, where Thrain must have been imprisoned?

One point that does not seem to have been discussed yet is the Gandalf went to Dol Guldur the second time in disguise, while he went to Saruman in Isengard openly ...

 

[Barrow Wight]

In "The Quest of Erebor" in Unfinished Tales, Gandalf says that he entered Dol Guldhur "in disguise", i.e. sneaked in; there's no textual evidence he was captured by Sauron, who may never even have known he was there. This fits with the "burglary" theme prominent throughout The Hobbit.

Besides which, as the Istari were specifically "prohibited to match power with power", Gandalf wouldn't have attempted to fight him; his powers were of another kind. This also explains the nature of the confrontation with Saruman; the "Battle of Wizards" was just another chance for PJ to indulge in his fondness for cartoonish fight scenes.

"Cartoonish fight scenes," indeed. Just look at King Kong's five-minute fight scene with giant bugs to see the real PJ, which manifested itself in several scenes in LOTR.

 

[Valandil]

If the Ishtari were prohibited from matching power with power, why did Gandalf do so with the Balrog?

Desperation? And I'd say the fight was forced upon him - he didn't go out seeking it.

As for the lead-off questions - yes, I agree with those who say that Gandalf snuck into Dol Guldor and managed to slip out again, as opposed to being captured and more-or-less imprisoned at Orthanc by Saruman. Whole different ballgame.

 

[Wastrel]

If the Ishtari were prohibited from matching power with power, why did Gandalf do so with the Balrog?

Ah. That is not what "power" means in this context. The forbidden power is gathering armies and seeking worldly power. The Istari were not to become rulers or generals. Saruman broke that trust under the influence of Sauron. The "power" that Gandalf used against the Balrog was his natural being as a Maiar.

To explain a little more, Sauron sought worldly power: the domination of other beings such as Men and Elves. That was what the Istari were forbidden to do.

 

[Vorondil]

To escape from Isengard Gandalf would have had to jump off a 500ft tower, which I don't think he would have survived.

 

[remyzero]

In Dol Guldor, no, it says that he only "just escaped". In Isengard, it quite plainly shows that he was held against his will. It was only in the movie that he was captured in Dol Guldor (and I'd pointed out that if he'd fallen prisoner to Saruman, that the idea of Sauron capturing him isn't far-fetched at all. In fact, what would be MORE far-fetched would be if he somehow got away after a direct fight, alone, with Sauron. Think of how Saruman captured him and the Balrog fight was a stalemate and Sauron was almost certainly more powerful than ether of those two (the only Balrog that could have stood against Sauron, possibly, was Gorthmog, who was already confirmed dead in the First Age.)

I just find it odd that Gandalf could break out of Dol Guldor, presumably with Sauron present, the same place that Galadriel was wielding the Elven Ring against to keep it at bay with merely servants of Sauron there.

Also, another oddity is that, unlike the movie, where there is a direct fight between Saruman and Gandalf and Gandalf is basically beaten up and sent to the top of the tower by Saruman's magic, in the book, it almost seems as though Gandalf let Saruman imprison him there without a knock-down drug-out fight.

isn't durins bane far more powerful than Gothmog. how can gothmog stand against sauron when he was killed by ecthelion even though ecthelion had already been weakened and at disadvantage.

 

[Radaghast]

Besides which, as the Istari were specifically "prohibited to match power with power", Gandalf wouldn't have attempted to fight him; his powers were of another kind. This also explains the nature of the confrontation with Saruman; the "Battle of Wizards" was just another chance for PJ to indulge in his fondness for cartoonish fight scenes.

Prohibited from matching Sauron; nothing said about not matching Balrogs (or even Nazgûl, for that matter).

Gandalf didn't (couldn't) matched his power with Balrog, he just plainly outsmarted him, using his power to destroy the bridge, and not to destroy the Balrog.
Later on, with the final battle with Balrog, I assume he did similar thing. Instead of going with force on the Balrog, he made him slip, or something to fall from the mountain.

That's basically what Gandalf does all through the battle, match his power with the Balrog's. While they're underground Gandalf has Durin's Bane on the run. "Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels." Presumably, Gandalf hews at him with Glamdring, and if you want to argue that Gandalf needs the Elf sword to even the playing field I'm on board with that; indeed, he uses it to break DB's fire sword into bits. But to say Gandalf wins by trickery is a bit far-fetched, imho. Also, on Celebdil:

Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is that not enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.

I see nothing here to even suggest Gandalf fools the Balrog into falling to his doom. It doesn't seem like Gandalf is holding back in the least, and indeed, it's this expenditure of power that hastens his (temporary) demise.