Depictions of Balrogs

[d4rk3lf]

You should be proud on what you painted.
Composition is very good, and, as you know, to make a detailed drawing, it takes time.

 

[Radaghast]

You should be proud on what you painted.
Composition is very good, and, as you know, to make a detailed drawing, it takes time.

Thanks for the kind words 🙂

And very true. I wish I'd taken the time to work it out more in the pencil stage.

 

[d4rk3lf]

It's never too late.

 

[Ent]

I don't think the Balrog should be twenty feet but it should still tower over Gandalf

Balrogs, "twice the height of men" or a little less. "Head came to waist/stomache". (About 11-12 feet.)
So not TOO terribly small..!!!

my woeful attempt

Ent would not say woeful by any means. Know you how far beyond anything Ent could contrive and produce this work is?

Since then perhaps you've learned a few things, so now see what you then did not.
But the effort was no doubt pure and honest and delivered with the best of intentions.

If any ever judge people based on what those they judge do not know, or cannot do, then none can stand before the hypocrisy of the one judging...for that judge too knows little (and likely does little) themselves.

Criticism is simple, and seated in the deepest nature of the race of men. Appreciation is rare, as it requires humankind to rise above their inherent nature.

Ent appreciates much about this picture, including its awareness of the more appropriate size fit, coloration and 'lack of' flame of the Demon, and the garb, color and interplay of the rest of the characters and attention to detail, weaponry and more.

Should you make another effort, no doubt it would be based on your increased knowledge, understanding and skillsets. Even that does not diminish the effort and value of this earlier work.

Growth is growth.
Thank you for sharing..!!

 

[Radaghast]

Thanks for the encouraging words, Ent. I am actually half-tempted to try again, but we shall see. I would certainly do a lot of preliminary rough sketches first.

 

[Radaghast]

I tried using AI to get some decent images without very good results. I finally got these four images using Bing's AI program. I think these are actually fairly good. I used the following prompt, a slight alteration of the book description:

In the middle of the shadow was a dark form, a demon of man-shape yet greater. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

I tried using AI to get some decent images without very good results. I finally got these four images using Bing's AI program. I think these are actually fairly good. I used the following prompt, a slight alteration of the book description:



View attachment 22722View attachment 22723View attachment 22724View attachment 22725

I think because they're named as demons of shadow and flame and our own perspective of demons people feel the need to add horns when drawing them
Quite understandable

 

[Aldarion]

A question on Quora prompted me to look for a book-accurate rendering of Durin's Bane, and the movie version (whatever else one may think of it) is not it. No, the description is not very detailed but how much creative license is too much?

I've never cared for the movie version.
View attachment 22697
Those stupid horns that don't seem to serve any practical (offensive) function. Same for the silly little flapless wings that just sit on its back and generate smoke. Also, the fact that it doesn't seem to be very fast but can still just appear where it needs to be. Meh (at best).

Anyway, to review the book description:

If the description is vague, it's meant to be. The creature's features are difficult to see. It's shrouded in darkness, except for the flame, which does not illuminate it.

Anyway, my Internet search yielded nothing remotely close to that description. Instead, I found depictions even more outlandish. The most infamous is probably that of the Ralph Bakshi film:

View attachment 22693
Just what in the unholy heck is this?

Somehow, though, I'm not sure that is the worst. I don't know how anyone could have read the book and come up with this:
View attachment 22694
This would not be out of place in a Rankin and Bass adaptation.

Then there's this one by the Bros. Hildebrandt.
View attachment 22695
More or less ridiculous than the one before (and is that a grass skirt it's wearing)? Better illustrated perhaps, but it's fairly ridiculous to my eyes. Whatever the case, I'm also concerned about the figures behind it. Is one mean to be an orc (the one that looks like a kobold) and the other a troll (looks rather like an evil dwarf)? Also, Gandalf doesn't look like he's smiting the bridge; he looks like more like he's shooting fire at it.

This one may be the worst I've seen yet (and I don't mean the quality of the illustration):

View attachment 22696
Honestly, six upper limbs? And none of the four arms are holding a sword 🤨😖

Anyone else have any "favorites"? Also, I'm wondering if anyone can pose any legit book-accurate renditions.

I think this video will make you happy, then:

 

[Ent]

To use AI, Ent thinks it best if a 'description' were developed based on the compilation of all the multiple and known texts, including those that mention his 'mane', etc.
"Descriptors" should be left out... (like 'the shadow spread wall to wall like wings)...unless we can be assured AI can accurately distinguish between the actual subject of the sentence, and a purely explanatory, illustrative descriptor.
And likely the word 'demon' should be left out as, noted above, it will invariably invoke 'pictures/illusions' not at all consistent with Tolkien's intent.

 

[Radaghast]

To use AI, Ent thinks it best if a 'description' were developed based on the compilation of all the multiple and known texts, including those that mention his 'mane', etc.
"Descriptors" should be left out... (like 'the shadow spread wall to wall like wings)...unless we can be assured AI can accurately distinguish between the actual subject of the sentence, and a purely explanatory, illustrative descriptor.
And likely the word 'demon' should be left out as, noted above, it will invariably invoke 'pictures/illusions' not at all consistent with Tolkien's intent.

It's not always easy to determine Tolkien's intent, though, as he is often somewhat vague, and I think he often left much to the reader's imagination. Also, 'balrog' does actually translate as 'demon of might' in Sindarin, which is what the Quenya word for 'balrog' Valarauco (pl. Valaraucar) translates as as well, according to The Silmarillion, wherein they are also referred to as 'demons of terror' or 'demons of fire'.

I don't really mind demonic traits, to be honest. I just think it can be overdone, as with the movie version; there should be some restraint and subtlety. The AI examples I posted are certainly not perfect but they're kind of evocative of how Durin's Bane appears at the bridge, at least to me.

 

[Ent]

It's not always easy to determine Tolkien's intent, though, as he is often somewhat vague,

This really hits the bullseye..!

To really purge ourselves of 'notions predisposed and propagated by historical representation', a good review of the current, etymological and mythological definitions of 'demons' is a great start. This would also be Tolkien's foundation for his 'mind's eye.'

The AI produced above is pretty fair, given the situation and location provided by the text etc. It's just those horns Ent feels unnecessarily interpretive, and is uncertain why AI would include them outside of 'bias based on interpretive input." AI is only capable of manipulating such data as it has been given. As each representation contains horns, yet horns are not mentioned in the immediate input, they are derived from the background input it bases its manipulation on.

All that said, Ent has a great deal of research to do into the mythological sources Tolkien himself may have been swayed by, before Ent could even begin to suggest what his mind may have been on the matter.

 

[Radaghast]

I would at least deemphasize the horns myself and probably give more of a sense of a fiery mane.

 

[Radaghast]

Using the Bing Image Creator app, I substituted 'demon' with 'monstrous form' (and changed a few other words as well) and got these results which I quite like, especially the second one, mostly just needs a flaming sword and whip and for its mane to be aflame. That one most closely resembles what I see in my mind's eye. A combo of the first two would be ideal, imho.

Just wanted to mention the scant details given in The Silmarillion, which are that Balrogs' "hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness." The text also says they "became most like [Morgoth] in his corruption", though I'm guessing that refers more to personality than physical description.

 

[Vorondil]

Well, here's my woeful attempt of old (don't say I didn't warn you 😆).
View attachment 22718
I think I was 19 at the time (I won't say the year but it was well before the movies). It was my first attempt (of only a few) at using gouache. Anyway, so much wrong with this and I made it worse by trying to delineate with ink🤢

But as pertains to the Balrog in particular, for one thing it's too small. I don't think the Balrog should be twenty feet but it should still tower over Gandalf. For another I don't know what I was thinking with sword and whip. Yikes 😬

I don't see what you where so worried about. Your Balrog looks more accurate then most other drawings.

 

[Ent]

got these results

yessssss, preciousssssss....these begin to look better we thinks, yesssss, we do.

 

[Radaghast]

I don't see what you where so worried about. Your Balrog looks more accurate then most other drawings.

Thanks 😎

I would say the Balrog is probably the least of the problems in that piece; but it is definitely too small and its sword and whip are a mess.

 

[MightyMartian]

It's a funny thing, but I can visualize the Balrog in my mind's eye; very large but perhaps not a vast giant, humanoid, blackness surrounded in flames, so much power that it acts almost like a standing wave around the Balrog (and thus the reference to "like wings").

 

[Ent]

surrounded in flames

This is one part Ent can't find. The balrog is said to be 'surrounded in shadow'', a black figure in the midst of the shadow.
The flame he wields burns within him... and of course is seen to 'come out' in various ways from time to time.
But the whole business of being 'surrounded in flames' is not found in the Writing anywhere Ent has been able to locate.

Just as Gandalf, wielder of the Flame of Anor, bears his flame 'within', using it at need, so the balrog, wielder of the Flame of Udun, does. It is in his 'darkness and shadow' he projects fear.. using the flame as a weapon. (Such as through the whip and flaming sword.)

Even the flaming sword, at the bridge, is not seen due to the shadow... until it 'flashes out...' of the shadow in his attack on Gandalf.
Overall, our concepts of the balrog are quite steered by illustrations inconsistent with text.

That said... if some can help Ent find texts where they are surrounded in flame etc., please provide locations... Ent would happily change his viewpoint on this issue.

Later addition here:
- just prior to the balrog arriving at the bridge, he is seen to 'leap over' the flames buring. (not walk through them, etc.)
- his mane is seen to 'stream fire' most likely having been ignited (though unharmed) by the flames all around the balrog, which are not the balrog's own flames but those already ignited and burning everywhere.
- it's his shadow that spreads wall to wall 'like wings' increasing his terrific* appearance, not a bunch of flames spreading wall to wall.

*terrific - used in its original/earlier meaning, not its more current one.

Perhaps our resident cat in a coat, @Elthir expressive, has in his repertoire some text unknown to us helping to clarify.
Ent just feels we've got a bit of a huge misimpression of balrogs... in several ways.

 

[Radaghast]

This is one part Ent can't find. The balrog is said to be 'surrounded in shadow'', a black figure in the midst of the shadow.
The flame he wields burns within him... and of course is seen to 'come out' in various ways from time to time.
But the whole business of being 'surrounded in flames' is not found in the Writing anywhere Ent has been able to locate.

Just as Gandalf, wielder of the Flame of Anor, bears his flame 'within', using it at need, so the balrog, wielder of the Flame of Udun, does. It is in his 'darkness and shadow' he projects fear.. using the flame as a weapon. (Such as through the whip and flaming sword.)

Even the flaming sword, at the bridge, is not seen due to the shadow... until it 'flashes out...' of the shadow in his attack on Gandalf.
Overall, our concepts of the balrog are quite steered by illustrations inconsistent with text.

That said... if some can help Ent find texts where they are surrounded in flame etc., please provide locations... Ent would happily change his viewpoint on this issue.

The initial description seem to suggest the fire comes from within , as in "the fire in it seemed to die" (there's also the aforementioned description in The Silmarillion that says their "hearts were of fire"). When it first approaches the fire that surrounds it here seems to come from the chasm between the Fellowship and the orcs and trolls:

The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it.

• "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm"

Fire does come from its nostrils, but that's about as much fire as the thing seems to generate in this scene. During the Balrog and Gandalf's descent into the water beneath the mountain, Gandalf says, "His fire was about me. I was burned." Then, on Zirakzigil, "he burst into new flame." I suppose it can be said that the Balrog can surround himself with fire if he wants, as long as he's not drenched.

 

[Ent]

"His fire was about me. I was burned." Then, on Zirakzigil, "he burst into new flame." I suppose it can be said that the Balrog can surround himself with fire if it wants.

These are good points.
(Ent added a couple thoughts along the same lines to his post above...)

In terms used by some: 'the balrog is a bit of a sticky wicket'.