How were 🧌trolls created?

[Vorondil]

What was corrupted to create trolls? In the appendices it says they where made in a mockery of ents, but are they corrupted ents?

 

[Ent]

What was corrupted to create trolls?

There is no evidence they are corrupted Ents. (But then again, there is no evidence at all.)

The Ents (or at least some) ARE said to have 'smooth gray skinned arms' in one place...
Though I don't know how Ents would be mixed with other races, but hey... this is fantasy.
And Orcs, twisted Elves, are far 'lesser' than a true elf... corruptions usually don't match up to the originals. (though there are exceptions, of course...like dragons.)

So who knows. The product of ents they may be. Lesser...far dumber... weaker... much shorter (probably as whatever they were crossed with wasn't 12-14 feet high).

Or somehow a biological mixing of larger, stupider races with dwarves, and nurturing them until they're 'bigger than dwarves' and dumber than posts... nurturing as Sauron did with the Nazgul's fell beasts and the biggest, smartest trolls, the Olag-hai of the 3rd age. We have no clue what the fell beasts were originally either. Maybe twisted great eagles, who knows.

Perhaps our lore masters have dug something out of the ever-effusive 'other materials' version 19z or something...

THANKS for asking a question I've puzzled over for some time now... (heading to the aspirin bottle.)

We do have this:
"Half-trolls was a term used to describe the appearance of the men from Far Harad who fought for Sauron at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. These Men were said to be black skinned with white eyes and red tongues.[1] Later in the battle, the knights of Dol Amroth were said to have driven before them "troll-men and Variags and orcs."[2]"

That contains some hint of cross-breeding.

Biological tampering seems to be a great focus of the darkness. Rejecting what "is", corrupting what "is", trying to transform it into something 'better'.

'Better' however is defined as 'more suitable to the purposes "I" want'. It doesn't mean they're really any 'better'. The Agenda drives the evaluation and conclusion.

 

[d4rk3lf]

but are they corrupted ents?

I don't believe so.
I assume they were created shortly after the Ents inhabited M.E. and that might be the time probably before first elves showed up. So I guess, soon after Ents show up, Morgoth found of their existence, and created Trools that could stand up against Ents (orcs are pretty useless against Ents).
Now, what creatures he used to create Trolls, I dunno...

Maybe he got few Big Mac lovers, and twisted them into trolls.
----

 

[Vorondil]

Maybe he got few Big Mac lovers, and twisted them into trolls.
----

Now that, is a truly disturbing image.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Now that, is a truly disturbing image.

This is from the period when Melkor quickly needed both Trolls and pushcarts, so some Trolls ended like this.

 

[Ent]

This is from the period when Melkor quickly needed both Trolls and pushcarts, so some Trolls ended like this.

one wonders how useful either would have been in a battle..??!!

Now that, is a truly disturbing image

It is my great hope there is some 'photoshopping' (or worse, AI) in the thing.

 

[Vorondil]

It is my great hope there is some 'photoshopping' (or worse, AI) in the thing.

I hope so, because if not, then I really don't want to think about the possibilities.

 

[d4rk3lf]

one wonders how useful either would have been in a battle..??!!

You don't think that pushcarts are used in constructions of Utumno and Angband?
Melkor didn't create EVERYTHING for battle...
Before battle.. you have to construct something.

 

[Elthir]

"(. . .) for trolls, as you probably know, must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again." The Hobbit

Hmm. Made of the stuff of mountains. At one point in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings [see chapter Treebeard, The Treason of Isengard], Tolkien jotted: "Difference between trolls --
stone inhabited by goblin spirit, stone-giants, and the "tree-folk". [Added in ink: ents.]"

Hmm again!

Skipping over draft letter 153 (1954) for some reason . . .

. . . . in the published text, we have Treebeard's opinion: "But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves."

Aside: "made in mockery" of Ents does not necessarily mean made from Ents.

Trolls are tall: "As tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height . . ."

Then we get Appendix F: "In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn and increasing their wits with wickedness."

And in the Third Age we have a troll-race (not before seen): it's said that none doubted Sauron bred them "though from what stock was not known" and "unlike the older race of the twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them."

Hmm. "Creatures."

But here we might, or even must, ask (or must we): were the Trolls in The Silmarillion fighting
under the Sun?

In The Children of Húrin version it's said that the Orcs piled the heads of the men of Hador "as a mound of gold in the sunset." Húrin fights the troll-guard of Gothmog. He calls out "Day shall come again!" Seventy times he uttered that cry, but he was taken at last by Orcs, who grappled him, till he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband: "Thus ended the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the Sun went down beyond the Sea. Night fell in Hithlum . . ."

Indeed, in the Grey Annals account: " . . . and the Orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold; for the sun was shining on the [fourth >] sixth and last day of the battle and their yellow locks shone amid the blood. Last of all Húrin stood alone."

In this version there are no trolls mentioned, in any case.

Moving on to the years after The Lord of the Rings was published, when we are clearly within the conception (not all of the previous quotes are) that Morgoth could not create, but only make -- in the sense of "tinkering" with, or corrupting, already existing things.

Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring, Text VIII (Orcs): "And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were "tinkered" with by Melkor."

Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring, Text IX: "The Elves would have classed the creatures called "trolls" (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs - in character and origin - but they were larger and slower. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types."

This is the last paragraph of a short note about the origin of orcs, and at the bottom of the page. Tolkien added "See The Lord of the Rings Appendix p. 410" -- the passage in Appendix F concerning Trolls.

Christopher Tolkien comments on this note: "He now expressly asserts the earlier view (see page. 408) and note 1) that the Orcs were in origin corrupted Elves, but observes that "later" some were probably derived from Men. In saying this (as the last paragraph and the reference to The Lord of the Rings Appendix F suggest) he seems to have been thinking of Trolls, and specifically of the Olog-hai, the great Trolls who appeared at the end of the Third Age (as stated in Appendix F): 'That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far sur-passed in size and power."

In conclusion: even though this is not an exhaustive look, I've forgotten the question 🐾

 

[Ent]

You don't think that pushcarts are used in constructions of Utumno and Angband?

I don't think a pushcart full of a belly so there's no room for anything else in it is used in construction, no. 🤣

 

[Ent]

In conclusion: even though this is not an exhaustive look, I've forgotten the question 🐾

Has anyone ever told you you have limited value, in spite of your great value?
That said, I KNEW you'd come through for us at some point...when you weren't sleeping in a cardboard box somplace.

 

[d4rk3lf]

I don't think a pushcart full of a belly so there's no room for anything else in it is used in construction, no. 🤣

But the belly full of pushcards, I explained earlier... haven't you read?

 

[Ent]

But the belly full of pushcards, I explained earlier... haven't you read?

ah. i got it now..! sorry. yes I read, I just didn't grasp the meaning rightly.

 

[Amon Rudh]

I am becoming more and more certain that Tolkien had a rather sadistic sense of humour! 🤣

 

[Radaghast]

What was corrupted to create trolls? In the appendices it says they where made in a mockery of ents, but are they corrupted ents?

Treebeard says they're made in mockery of Ents. Full quote:

Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls. We are made of the bones of the earth. We can split stone like the roots of trees, only quicker, far quicker, if our minds are roused!

• "Treebeard"

"Bones of the earth" is a little confusing. Does it mean earth or stone? Earth seems more likely, but does it suggest that plants grow out of the Ents? If stone, it could mean that Trolls were selectively bred from Ents as Orcs were from Elves, at least according to The Silmarillion. But the quote above leaves the nature of the origins of both orcs and trolls rather ambiguous. In other words, there is no clear answer, for Trolls or even for Orcs.

 

[Vorondil]

I am becoming more and more certain that Tolkien had a rather sadistic sense of humour! 🤣

Why?

 

[Amon Rudh]

Providing such excellent texts which we all love but the leaving lots of loose ends and contradiction for us to argue/agonise about. He wrote in such a way that almost everything is open to interpretation. Fantastic.

 

[Vorondil]

Providing such excellent texts which we all love but the leaving lots of loose ends and contradiction for us to argue/agonise about. He wrote in such a way that almost everything is open to interpretation. Fantastic.

I see what you mean.

 

[Ent]

He wrote in such a way that almost everything is open to interpretation.

Yes, many things. And he himself said he did so intentionally.

 

[Olorgando]

Yes, many things. And he himself said he did so intentionally.

Extremely realistic. Human history, very much so in history books, is riddled with question marks. And then there's the matter of viewpoints:
Comparing English and French history books covering the period from 1066 onwards could be quite amusing, at least for the non-trivial part of the earth's population that is neither English nor French ...