Were the first age battles more populated than the third age battles?

[Turin_Turambar]

Source: https://notionclubarchives.fandom.com/wiki/Demography
I've opened a lot of threads on this subject before. I admit, it's a very cliché question, but according to the source in the link I gave, the population of races living in the third age is far more than the population of races in the first age. First age wars are more powerful. Because there are high elves, balrogs and dragons. But I was very surprised after reading the source in the link I gave above. Because according to the source, the population of races living in the third age is by far more than those living in the first age. I think this overpopulation was also reflected in the wars of the third age. In other words, the armies of the third age may be much more numerous than the armies of the first age. If we look at this source;
from the first age 60 to first age 455;
elf population: 1.5 million
total population of angband during the wars of beleriand: 1,100,000 orcs and demons
total population of gondor at the war of the ring: 4,500,000
total population of rohan in the war of the ring: 1,000,000
total population of middle-earth towards the end of the third age: 25 millions, Easterlings, Orcs, Dwarves, Elves.
Do you think this source is correct? Does it reflect reality? Or is it just a fictional guess?

 

[mahalmar]

Very interesting @Teleporno Celeborn. I have given your source's sources a quick look. Mostly the one concerned with Elves in the First Age., because it randomly stood out to me. An in-dept analyzes and critical review of Morwinski and Wigmore should be done before anything could be said really about any estimates. I did while skimming through the post of Wigmore concerning the Elves of the First Age found at least one assumption that could make any final results obsolete. In his argument Wigmore assumes that only a part of the population of Gondolin would be mustered for war (i.e. being soliders). Why? How? How did he come to this conclusion? What do we know of Elven (and in particular Noldor) martial aspects of their society? Wigmore bases his assumptions on real world (human!) assumptions (I say assumptions because all numbers ever given by scholars especially with regards to antiquity should always be understood as such), mainly concerning city-state like entities, as he has the likes of Athens in mind when making his argument.

In any case it is thrilling to talk about troop count and total population, but without sound and thorough argumentation it's all but imaginary numbers. Obviously since Tolkien was heavily influenced by real world history it is in my opinion reasonable to take the time period(s) he took inspiration from as reference for our head-canon of troop counts and total population.

 

[Ent]

In any case it is thrilling to talk about troop count and total population, but without sound and thorough argumentation it's all but imaginary numbers. Obviously since Tolkien was heavily influenced by real world history it is in my opinion reasonable to take the time period(s) he took inspiration from as reference for our head-canon of troop counts and total population.

Also taking into account if we're talking about things of 1st and early 2nd age timeframe, we're reminded Tolkien handled that intentionally mythologically rather than historically.

In other words, as is consistent with 'word of mouth' transmission of information through centuries, sizes grow, powers grow, armies grow, things get exaggerated and embellished... until by the time of the historical presentation of the 3rd age, they are truly 'myths and fables' being told to us, and learned from verbal 'old legends' etc., such as Samwise's Oliphaunt being "as big as a house". Obviously not so. Or a dragon big enough to break the peaks of 3 separate mountains. Obviously not. Or Balrogs being as big as most artists draw them, when even earlier age evidence is against it... much less LoTR evidence. Etc.

And yes, embellishment is even used to a degree in LoTR.

Thus @mahalmar rightly points out we are well into speculation about any 'comparisons'...thus there can neither be a 'right', nor a 'wrong' answer for many many things.

 

[mahalmar]

Also taking into account if we're talking about things of 1st and early 2nd age timeframe, we're reminded Tolkien handled that intentionally mythologically rather than historically.

I agree. But we are faced with two different layers here, namely those of the primary and the secondary world. In the primary world Tolkien as a (sub-) creator did indeed want to give a more mythological storytelling.
But since the contents are indeed (speaking from the secondary world perspective now) the gatherings of (mostly) elven lore by Bilbo, we have to consider that we are dealing with historical, well more historiographical material. Obviously you could then ask, why it still feels this mythological, and I like to think maybe Bilbo wasn't that interested in numbers or anything and just wanted to tell the history in such a manner that it became a very entertaining story.

In other words, as is consistent with 'word of mouth' transmission of information through centuries, sizes grow, powers grow, armies grow, things get exaggerated and embellished

True. But that always forces the question upon me how precise elvish memory is and if it was in the elvish nature to "embellish" (his)story.

 

[Ent]

True. But that always forces the question upon me how precise elvish memory is and if it was in the elvish nature to "embellish" (his)story.

All true.

One question arises. Was it the Elves doing the 'embellishing'. (Though it is likely the Elves provided much of the source material.)

the gatherings of (mostly) elven lore by Bilbo, we have to consider that we are dealing with historical, well more historiographical material.

This is an excellent point, as clearly Bilbo had access to some few of those Eldar remaining (along with many younger elves as well.)

My concern is with understanding what Tolkien meant when he said what he said about how we should approach understanding Middle-earth.

I'll re-locate my source materials on that and review his words. I'll bring them along for consideration too.

It may be a little time before I can do so though. I'm pretty busy I fear. Old though I may be, no grass can grow under my feet. Constantly on the move from place to place in the forest...though at a slower pace than before becoming a bit more tree-ish..

 

[mahalmar]

I'll re-locate my source materials on that and review his words. I'll bring them along for consideration too.

that would be most appreciated

It may be a little time before I can do so though

and do not worry. I will be here for ages to come, after all is it not said the thrones of the Valar shall stand until Arda is being unmade?

 

[Ent]

is it not said the thrones of the Valar shall stand until Arda is being unmade?

Indeed, another thing Morgoth in his rage and malice (and Sauron and so many others) could not grasp, operating from self and sight, rather than Source and faith.

 

[Elthir]

In my opinion The Silmarillion is not an Elvish (Eldarin) work. See Tolkien's note 17 (among other, later descriptions, including note 17 to Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) to The Shibboleth of Feanor:

"As is seen in the Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Númenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Húrin" was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are "Mannish" works." JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

__________

Possibly interesting: as The Lord of the Rings was first published, I think it's very arguable that Bilbo's Translation from the Elvish were not concerned with The Silmarillion. In the first edition, Bilbo gave Frodo "some" books of lore ["three" books according to the revised edition] that he had made at various times, labelled "Translations from the Elvish, by B. B.”

What's in these books of lore (again, in 1955 anyway)? This appears to be related to the following in the original Appendix A: "Thus the Red Book contained many annals, genealogies, and traditions of the realms of the South and the North, derived through Bilbo from the books of lore in Rivendell; or through Frodo and Peregrin from the King himself, and from the record of Gondor that he opened to them: such as The Book of the Kings, The Book of the Stewards, and the Akallabeth (that is, The Downfall of Numenor)."

Stuff related to the realms of the South and the North. Also, it appears that the "old" framework for the transmission of The Silmarillion -- that is, Ælfwine getting the tales of the Elder Days directly from Elves in Tol Eressea and translating them into Old English -- was still in play in the early 1950s, at least in some form (the character of Ælfwine seems to vanish after the late 1950s early 1960s however).

And for the second, revised edition of The Lord of the Rings (1960s), I'd argue that the matter had notably changed -- references to Numenorean lore in Rivendell had already appeared in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (like for example "No. 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Númenorean, concerning the heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Númenorean tale of Túrin and Mim the Dwarf." ) . . .

. . . and later, Tolkien adds: (The Return of The King, Appendix A): "The ancient legends of the First Age, in which Bilbo’s chief interest lay, are very briefly referred to, since they concern the ancestry of Elrond and the Numenorean Kings and chieftains.”

And of course, for the second edition, we get a new text Note on the Shire Records, in which Bilbo's “Translations from the Elvish" are now described as: “These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1418, he had used all of the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.”

In short, I'd say a work like Quenta Silmarillion (specifically) doesn't necessarily need to be written or compiled by Elves, rather it merely needs to be written in Elvish -- enter Bilbo as translator.

And along with Bilbo, enter a mostly Mannish Silmarillion!