Why is the third age said to be the age of collapse for all kingdoms?

[Turin_Turambar]

I want to open a topic that some people discussed in this forum a long time ago. Many Tolkien readers say that the Third Age is a period of collapse for all kingdoms. If so, why are there more orcs in the Siege of Gondor than in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad? And why is the number of soldiers 10,000 in the nirnaeth arnoediad, the greatest war of Gondolin, the largest and greatest elf kingdom of the first age? There were exactly 10,000 Gondor soldiers defending Minas Tirith in the Siege of Gondor. Moreover, Gondolin is the largest and greatest elven kingdom of the First Age. Gondolin is had a larger army than Hithlum, Doriath and Nargothrond. But in the second largest war of the First Age, Gondolin had an army of 10,000 elves. That is, same the number of Gondor's army in Minas Tirith so 10,000 gondor soldier. Moreover, there were 100,000 orcs in Nirnaeth Arnoediad. But there are exactly 200,000 orcs in the Siege of Gondor. moreover, lastly, falas, one of the ancient elven kingdoms of the first age, had 5000 elven soldiers in nirnaeth arnoediad. but there were 6000 rohan cavalry in the battle of the pelennor fields. again there is no difference in numbers. Sources;

Nirnaeth Arnoediad

The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, also known as the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, was the fifth battle in the Wars of Beleriand fought between the forces of Morgoth and the...

tolkiengateway.net

Siege of Minas Tirith

Note: The contents of this article are based upon Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings film trilogy. The Siege of Minas Tirith was an attempt made by the Dark Lord Sauron to capture the city of Minas Tirith in the twilight days of the War of the Ring . As the capital of Sauron's long time enemy...

peter-jacksons-the-lord-of-the-rings-trilogy.fandom.com

The number of races is not decreasing. But even though elves are weak because they are not high elves, why is the decline in middle-earth contact attributed to all races and kingdoms?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

And why is the number of soldiers 10,000 in the nirnaeth arnoediad, the greatest war of Gondolin, the largest and greatest elf kingdom of the first age?

Where do you get that Gondolin was the largest elf kingdom in the first age?

There were exactly 10,000 Gondor soldiers defending Minas Tirith in the Siege of Gondor.

Can you quote from Tolkien where he says there were exactly 10,000 soldiers defending Minas Tirith?

Moreover, Gondolin is the largest and greatest elven kingdom of the First Age.

Where does Tolkien say Gandolin was the largest elven kingdom of the First Age?

Gondolin is had a larger army than Hithlum, Doriath and Nargothrond.

Did it? Where does Tolkien say that?

But there are exactly 200,000 orcs in the Siege of Gondor.

Where does Tolkien say that? Can you quote Tolkien?

moreover, lastly, falas, one of the ancient elven kingdoms of the first age, had 5000 elven soldiers in nirnaeth arnoediad.

Quote from Tolkien needed.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

I don't care about false sources but only 10000 soldiers in Niraneth is just ridiculous.
How can all the muster of the all armies of the Noldor which had kept them safe for hundreds of years be only 10000?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

I don't care about false sources but only 10000 soldiers in Niraneth is just ridiculous.
How can all the muster of the all armies of the Noldor which had kept them safe for hundreds of years be only 10000?

It is more than that, as Turgon comes with an army "ten thousand strong".
Though I have argued in the past that the forces involved in the Nirnaeth were less numerous than what had been available in the Bragollach, as the Eldar had not had time to recover from their losses.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Where do you get that Gondolin was the largest elf kingdom in the first age?


Can you quote from Tolkien where he says there were exactly 10,000 soldiers defending Minas Tirith?


Where does Tolkien say Gandolin was the largest elven kingdom of the First Age?




Did it? Where does Tolkien say that?



Where does Tolkien say that? Can you quote Tolkien?



Quote from Tolkien needed.

I read on the internet that Gondolin is the greatest elf kingdom in the first age on two sites. I can't put link the sites because unfortunately I forgot both sites. Also, since Gondolin is the largest elven kingdom, it can definitely be the elf kingdom with the most armies in terms of the number of armies. I also read from a wiki on the internet that the number of Falas elves in nirnaeth arnoediad is 5000. I have already linked the information that there were 10,000 gondor soldiers and 200,000 orcs in the siege of gondor. Now I'm putting it for you again.

Siege of Minas Tirith

Note: The contents of this article are based upon Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings film trilogy. The Siege of Minas Tirith was an attempt made by the Dark Lord Sauron to capture the city of Minas Tirith in the twilight days of the War of the Ring . As the capital of Sauron's long time enemy...

peter-jacksons-the-lord-of-the-rings-trilogy.fandom.com

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

The greatest in defenses and other aspects maybe,but in numbers? I doubt.
I think the Sindars of Doriath come first with those of Hithlum coming second although it's just guesses.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I don't care about false sources but only 10000 soldiers in Niraneth is just ridiculous.
How can all the muster of the all armies of the Noldor which had kept them safe for hundreds of years be only 10000?

I think the fact that the gondolin army consists of 10,000 elves shows that the elves are made of flesh and blood like the third age men and do not have much difference and privileges.

The greatest in defenses and other aspects maybe,but in numbers? I doubt.
I think the Sindars of Doriath come first with those of Hithlum coming second although it's just guesses.

But Doriath's army never participated in the great wars of the Noldor. Hithlum's army may perhaps be close in number to the gondolin's army. But the gondolin's elven population was greater than that of Hithlum.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Because elves do not age and therefore do not die. They may not reproduce as fast as men but they were at peace in Gondolin for centuries which gave them time to have children...also we don't know how many of the Noldor left Valinor exactly.

But Doriath's army never participated in the great wars of the Noldor. Hithlum's army may perhaps be close in number to the gondolin's army. But the gondolin's elven population was greater than that of Hithlum.

Doriath elves were at peace because of the girdle of Melian for centuries and even before that. They were also greater in numbers compared to the Noldor even before leaving for Valinor.
They did not participate in battles which means no dead elves for them while Noldor had no choice but to fight.
Also how many did follow Turgon? I think as the high king Fingolfin would have more followers than his son.
You are also forgetting that many Sindar of mithrim joined Fingolfin's elves when they settled there and they were a great population on their own.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Doriath elves were at peace because of the girdle of Melian for centuries and even before that. They were also greater in numbers compared to the Noldor even before leaving for Valinor.
They did not participate in battles which means no dead elves for them while Noldor had no choice but to fight.
Also how many did follow Turgon? I think as the high king Fingolfin would have more followers than his son.
You are also forgetting that many Sindar of mithrim joined Fingolfin's elves when they settled there and they were a great population on their own.

yes but the elves of doriath were completely wiped out in the 2 battles with the dwarves and finally in the second kinslaying.i don't think they are very very large in number if their numbers are reduced that much with only 2 battles with the dwarves.i'm talking only about the elves of doriath not all the teleri. I also think that fingolfin had more followers than turgon.but from dagor aglareb to nirnaeth arnoediad the population of gondolin probably exceeded the population of hithlum.because the elves of hithlum suffered heavy losses at dagor bragollacht.but the elves of gondolin were not present at that battle.and at nirnaeth arnoediad the gondolin army was at the peak of its power.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Doriath elves were not completely wiped out by dwarves but later by the sons of Fëanor for they still gave a fight which resulted in three of them dying.
What you're saying is true but I don't think Gondolin's army was greater than the one from Hithlum in Niraneth.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Doriath elves were not completely wiped out by dwarves but later by the sons of Fëanor for they still gave a fight which resulted in three of them dying.
What you're saying is true but I don't think Gondolin's army was greater than the one from Hithlum in Niraneth.

Of course you may think such, and I respect it. But I would like to you to know that the gondolin was more populated than Hithlum, as elven population. That's why I think the gondolin army is larger than hithlum army in nirnaeth.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

I read on the internet that Gondolin is the greatest elf kingdom in the first age on two sites. I can't put link the sites because unfortunately I forgot both sites.

I did not ask about "greatest".

Also, since Gondolin is the largest elven kingdom, it can definitely be the elf kingdom with the most armies in terms of the number of armies.

This is circular.
Where does Tolkien say Gondolin was the largest elf-kingdom?
What is written in The Silmarillion is:
"...Turgon sent forth all his people, even to a third part of the Noldor of Fingolfin’s following, and a yet greater host of the Sindar; and they passed away, company by company, secretly, under the shadows of Ered Wethrin, and they came unseen to Gondolin."
A third of the Noldor of Fingolfin's host + Sindar.
See Silmarillion, Noldor in Beleriand

Meanwhile it is also written:
"Thus the realm of Finrod was the greatest by far, though he was the youngest of the great lords of the Noldor, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Maedhros, and Finrod Felagund." It was the "greatest" (i.e. largest and most populous of the Noldorin realms) because:
"And following Sirion from north to south there lay upon the right hand in West Beleriand the Forest of Brethil between Sirion and Teiglin, and then the realm of Nargothrond, between Teiglin and Narog. And the River Narog rose in the falls of Ivrin in the southern face of Dor-lómin, and flowed some eighty leagues ere he joined Sirion in Nan-tathren, the Land of Willows. South of Nan-tathren was a region of meads filled with many flowers, where few folk dwelt; and beyond lay the marshes and isles of reed about the mouths of Sirion, and the sands of his delta empty of all living things save birds of the sea.
But the realm of Nargothrond extended also west of Narog to the River Nenning, that reached the sea at Eglarest; and Finrod became the overlord of all the Elves of Beleriand between Sirion and the sea, save only in the Falas."
Finrod also had Angrod, Aegnor and Orodreth as vassals in Dorthonion and Minas Tirith.
See Silmarillion, Beleriand and its Realms

I also read from a wiki on the internet that the number of Falas elves in nirnaeth arnoediad is 5000. I have already linked the information that there were 10,000 gondor soldiers and 200,000 orcs in the siege of gondor. Now I'm putting it for you again.

Siege of Minas Tirith

Note: The contents of this article are based upon Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings film trilogy. The Siege of Minas Tirith was an attempt made by the Dark Lord Sauron to capture the city of Minas Tirith in the twilight days of the War of the Ring . As the capital of Sauron's long time enemy...

peter-jacksons-the-lord-of-the-rings-trilogy.fandom.com

I asked about a quote from Tolkien. Not a wiki.
Further, I'm fairly sure this is a book thread, not a movie thread. Jackson's made up numbers relate to Jackson's movies, not Tolkien's books.
The number of "gondor soldiers" at Minas Tirith are "less than three thousands" (LotR, Minas Tirith) from the fiefs and several companies of Minas Tirith itself.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I did not ask about "greatest".


This is circular.
Where does Tolkien say Gondolin was the largest elf-kingdom?
What is written in The Silmarillion is:
"...Turgon sent forth all his people, even to a third part of the Noldor of Fingolfin’s following, and a yet greater host of the Sindar; and they passed away, company by company, secretly, under the shadows of Ered Wethrin, and they came unseen to Gondolin."
A third of the Noldor of Fingolfin's host + Sindar.
See Silmarillion, Noldor in Beleriand

Meanwhile it is also written:
"Thus the realm of Finrod was the greatest by far, though he was the youngest of the great lords of the Noldor, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Maedhros, and Finrod Felagund." It was the "greatest" (i.e. largest and most populous of the Noldorin realms) because:
"And following Sirion from north to south there lay upon the right hand in West Beleriand the Forest of Brethil between Sirion and Teiglin, and then the realm of Nargothrond, between Teiglin and Narog. And the River Narog rose in the falls of Ivrin in the southern face of Dor-lómin, and flowed some eighty leagues ere he joined Sirion in Nan-tathren, the Land of Willows. South of Nan-tathren was a region of meads filled with many flowers, where few folk dwelt; and beyond lay the marshes and isles of reed about the mouths of Sirion, and the sands of his delta empty of all living things save birds of the sea.
But the realm of Nargothrond extended also west of Narog to the River Nenning, that reached the sea at Eglarest; and Finrod became the overlord of all the Elves of Beleriand between Sirion and the sea, save only in the Falas."
Finrod also had Angrod, Aegnor and Orodreth as vassals in Dorthonion and Minas Tirith.
See Silmarillion, Beleriand and its Realms

I asked about a quote from Tolkien. Not a wiki.
Further, I'm fairly sure this is a book thread, not a movie thread. Jackson's made up numbers relate to Jackson's movies, not Tolkien's books.
The number of "gondor soldiers" at Minas Tirith are "less than three thousands" (LotR, Minas Tirith) from the fiefs and several companies of Minas Tirith itself.

Honestly, this is the first time I've learned that the realm of Finrod is called the Greatest. Thank you for sharing. But I wonder why the 3 greatest elven kingdoms are called Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond? Also, aren't peter jackson's movies considered canon? what is the reason of this?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Honestly, this is the first time I've learned that the realm of Finrod is called the Greatest. Thank you for sharing. But I wonder why the 3 greatest elven kingdoms are called Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond?

Where does Tolkien call Gondolin the "greatest" (as a reference to its size and population)?

Also, aren't peter jackson's movies considered canon? what is the reason of this?

Jackson's movies are "canon" for Jackson's movies.
Jackson's movies are not Tolkien.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Where does Tolkien call Gondolin the "greatest" (as a reference to its size and population)?


Jackson's movies are "canon" for Jackson's movies.
Jackson's movies are not Tolkien.

As I said before, Doriath Gondolin and Nargothrond are mentioned as the greatest elf kingdoms on the internet. But I don't know if Tolkien said it himself.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I read on the internet

I think I see the source of the problem . . . 🤔