Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien

[Olorgando]

Why didn’t Tolkien just write a book filled with happy endings? 🥹

Trying to imagine someone who would seriously ask such a question reading The Silmarillion. Failing miserably. 😵‍💫

 

[Aldarion]

Because his world he created is a parallel for our own. There is light and dark, happy and sad, but all endings just are. Inevitable, and ultimately, neither good nor bad.

Not parallel. It is our world, specifically the prehistory of our own world - Tolkien IIRC said that the age after Jesus' birth is the Seventh Age. There is even Christianity precursor in his writings.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

Not parallel. It is our world, specifically the prehistory of our own world - Tolkien IIRC said that the age after Jesus' birth is the Seventh Age. There is even Christianity precursor in his writings.

I'm going to disagree, Middle-Earth's history ends with an apocalypse and a rebirth of the world through the Second Music at the end of the 5th age. Tolkien was likely referring to revelations about apostasy and each new profit bringing a new dispensation, which is commonplace in Christian tradition.

 

[Aldarion]

I'm going to disagree, Middle-Earth's history ends with an apocalypse and a rebirth of the world through the Second Music at the end of the 5th age. Tolkien was likely referring to revelations about apostasy and each new profit bringing a new dispensation, which is commonplace in Christian tradition.

Is there any evidence Tolkien saw that as being in the past as opposed to actually being equivalent to Christian apocalypse?

 

[Deimos]

@Radaghast...
He posts! 😄👍🤸‍♂️🎉🤩 (...just happy to see you're back 😉)

 

[Radaghast]

I'm going to disagree, Middle-Earth's history ends with an apocalypse and a rebirth of the world through the Second Music at the end of the 5th age. Tolkien was likely referring to revelations about apostasy and each new profit bringing a new dispensation, which is commonplace in Christian tradition.

Disagree with what part? If you mean the part about Arda being our own world, Tolkien has said so himself:

I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > i, an ancient name for the oikoumenē, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary.

• The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #83

As for the rest, I don't think that's quite right. I don't think Tolkien spoke of a 5th Age. Also, do you mean 'prophet'? I don't think prophets are really a thing in the legendarium. If you meant 'profit', I hope you will elucidate.

 

[Radaghast]

@Radaghast...
He posts! 😄👍🤸‍♂️🎉🤩 (...just happy to see you're back 😉)

Thank you 🙂

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

Disagree with what part? If you mean the part about Arda being our own world, Tolkien has said so himself:

• The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #83

As for the rest, I don't think that's quite right. I don't think Tolkien spoke of a 5th Age. Also, do you mean 'prophet'? I don't think prophets are really a thing in the legendarium. If you meant 'profit', I hope you will elucidate.

Middle Earth exists in 5 ages, born of the First Music, and reborn of the Second Music. If Arda and Earth are one and the same, our world was born of the Second Music. Also, random piece of lore is that Middle-Earth is flat... So, do with that what you will.
In regards to 'prophets' it is the plural of prophet, defined by Google as "a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God". This was used in the context of speculation about what Tolkien might have meant referencing Jesus Christ and the 7th age.

 

[Radaghast]

Middle Earth exists in 5 ages, born of the First Music, and reborn of the Second Music. If Arda and Earth are one and the same, our world was born of the Second Music. Also, random piece of lore is that Middle-Earth is flat... So, do with that what you will.
In regards to 'prophets' it is the plural of prophet, defined by Google as "a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God". This was used in the context of speculation about what Tolkien might have meant referencing Jesus Christ and the 7th age.

Again, I've not seen anything said of any 5th Age. Tolkien barely gets into the Fourth Age. Arda is not flat, actually. It was made spherical by Eru after Ar-Pharazôn's ill-advised naval assault on the Undying Lands. As far as 'prophet' you used the word 'profit' so I was just seeking clarification.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

Again, I've not seen anything said of any 5th Age. Tolkien barely gets into the Fourth Age. Arda is not flat, actually. It was made spherical by Eru after Ar-Pharazôn's ill-advised naval assault on the Undying Lands. As far as 'prophet' you used the word 'profit' so I was just seeking clarification.

Yeah, I see that now, thanks 😂
I'm actually not sure where I heard 5 ages, but it must have been somewhere. The Second Music is defined in the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which I had associated with the 5th age, but I digress.

 

[Radaghast]

Yeah, I see that now, thanks 😂
I'm actually not sure where I heard 5 ages, but it must have been somewhere. The Second Music is defined in the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which I had associated with the 5th age, but I digress.

If there's a Fifth Age I think it might be this age, not really sure, but the legendarium only spans four Ages, plus the pre-Ages era.

Arda Timeline

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

If there's a Fifth Age I think it might be this age, not really sure, but the legendarium only spans four Ages, plus the pre-Ages era.

Arda Timeline

Ok, I was looking at timelines and I see how they work with the other info you have shared. That puts the Second Music in our future?

 

[Radaghast]

If the 'Second Music' follows the Dagor Dagorath, which is Tolkien's vision of the final battle, then yes, though I don't think the DD is considered canon.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

If the 'Second Music' follows the Dagor Dagorath, which is Tolkien's vision of the final battle, then yes, though I don't think the DD is considered canon.

The Second Prophecy of Mandos isn't canon?

 

[Radaghast]

The Second Prophecy of Mandos isn't canon?

Here's what Tolkien wrote:

"if any change shall come and the Marring [of Arda] be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.[1]

• Morgoth's Ring, v10 in The History of Middle-Earth series

I think Christopher Tolkien felt this contradicted what Tolkien wrote of the Second Prophecy and so removed the Dagor Dagorath from The Silmarillion. So, one would say not officially canon, I suppose.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

Here's what Tolkien wrote:

• Morgoth's Ring, v10 in The History of Middle-Earth series

I think Christopher Tolkien felt this contradicted what Tolkien wrote of the Second Prophecy and so removed the Dagor Dagorath from The Silmarillion. So, one would say not officially canon, I suppose.

Hmmm, I might not take Christopher's word for it.

 

[Olorgando]

Ok, I was looking at timelines and I see how they work with the other info you have shared. That puts the Second Music in our future?

Not according to the Silmarillion edited and published by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.
From the "Ainulindalë", page 7 in my paperback edition:

"For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone, and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar proponded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

Both Elves and Men appear during the First Age, the Elves during the Years of the Two Trees, Men during the Years of the Sun (at least in Beleriand).

JRRT never even remotely managed to settle his chronology before the Second Age (which is given at least annalistic form in the Appendices to LotR), as can be seen in mind-numbing detail in Carl F. Hostetter's 2021 "The Nature of Middle-earth". But LotR only goes into about the first 120 years of the Fourth Age, again only in annalistic form. I have never read anything about a Fifth Age, only speculations in letters by JRRT himself that we might be in the Sixth or Seventh Age by now.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

Not according to the Silmarillion edited and published by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.
From the "Ainulindalë", page 7 in my paperback edition:

"For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone, and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar proponded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

Both Elves and Men appear during the First Age, the Elves during the Years of the Two Trees, Men during the Years of the Sun (at least in Beleriand).

JRRT never even remotely managed to settle his chronology before the Second Age (which is given at least annalistic form in the Appendices to LotR), as can be seen in mind-numbing detail in Carl F. Hostetter's 2021 "The Nature of Middle-earth". But LotR only goes into about the first 120 years of the Fourth Age, again only in annalistic form. I have never read anything about a Fifth Age, only speculations in letters by JRRT himself that we might be in the Sixth or Seventh Age by now.

When I refer to the Second Music, it does not refer to the Second Theme of the First Music, it refers to the parallel of the Christian Second Coming.

 

[Olorgando]

When I refer to the Second Music, it does not refer to the Second Theme of the First Music, it refers to the parallel of the Christian Second Coming.

I can find no mention of a Second Music in my 2002 "The History of Middle-earth Index", only to the Second Prophecy of Mandos.
Here, at the end of §32 on page 333 of my paperback of volume V "The Lost Road" of HoMe, is the statement:

"But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar."

Now mind you, volume V deals with earlier writing. I (too) have a memory of *something music-like?* involving Men but not Elves at the End of Days. Possibly JRRT simply did not refer to it as the Second Music, so that there is no such entry in the Index volume. What I believe to remember from this *something* is that the result will be Arda healed, not Arda unmarred, as the marring by Melkor entered in the (First) Music, and Arda as given reality by Ilúvatar was Arda marred.

On principle, I would hesitate to read anything too explicitly biblical into JRRT's writings, as he was adamant that it was not an allegory of the Bible or Christian teaching generally. There is the part in volume X "Morgoth's Ring", part four "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where there is a hint at least of the (first) coming of Christ in the future (not just the future of the First Age that the Athrabeth is set in, but also the future of the setting of LotR). I doubt it would have been included in any form of the Silmarillion hypothetically published by JRRT himself, no more than the long versions of the Great Tales would have been - Beren and Lúthien, The Children of Húrin, The Fall of Gondolin, and never mind the tale of Eärendil that he only sketched cursorily, but which he thought would be longer than the other three (and never mind the poems about B&L or CoH). The Silmarillion was always going to be synoptic and compressed.

A final comment: in my thousands of pages of reading about Middle-earth, I definitely do not remember a single reference to the Fifth Age ...

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

I can find no mention of a Second Music in my 2002 "The History of Middle-earth Index", only to the Second Prophecy of Mandos.
Here, at the end of §32 on page 333 of my paperback of volume V "The Lost Road" of HoMe, is the statement:

"But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar."

Now mind you, volume V deals with earlier writing. I (too) have a memory of *something music-like?* involving Men but not Elves at the End of Days. Possibly JRRT simply did not refer to it as the Second Music, so that there is no such entry in the Index volume. What I believe to remember from this *something* is that the result will be Arda healed, not Arda unmarred, as the marring by Melkor entered in the (First) Music, and Arda as given reality by Ilúvatar was Arda marred.

On principle, I would hesitate to read anything too explicitly biblical into JRRT's writings, as he was adamant that it was not an allegory of the Bible or Christian teaching generally. There is the part in volume X "Morgoth's Ring", part four "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where there is a hint at least of the (first) coming of Christ in the future (not just the future of the First Age that the Athrabeth is set in, but also the future of the setting of LotR). I doubt it would have been included in any form of the Silmarillion hypothetically published by JRRT himself, no more than the long versions of the Great Tales would have been - Beren and Lúthien, The Children of Húrin, The Fall of Gondolin, and never mind the tale of Eärendil that he only sketched cursorily, but which he thought would be longer than the other three (and never mind the poems about B&L or CoH). The Silmarillion was always going to be synoptic and compressed.

A final comment: in my thousands of pages of reading about Middle-earth, I definitely do not remember a single reference to the Fifth Age ...

Yeah, I honestly don't know where I got that from. 😂
The Dagor Dagorath is the basis for my understanding on this topic. I am not a long-read fan of Tolkien. I am young and have much yet to understand, although I have read the Silmarillion. Ultimately, any deep lore will likely escape my grasp, and my understanding is yet incomplete.