How long from wounding of 2 Trees to Fingolfin in Beleriand?

[david_wendelken]

There are a number of threads on various sites detailing the timeline between the wounding of the Two Trees and Fingolfin crossing the ice. People are arguing that the journey took 33 years!

As I re-read the Silmarillion, that timeline seems crazy.

1) It makes no narrative sense. Feanor is in a rush to keep moving lest his followers cool down and reflect on what they are doing.
2) The host of the Noldor would have starved if it took them that long to march that distance.
3) They could have built ships in that time!
4) Hobbits made it from The Shire to Mordor and back in a bit over a year, and that distance is more than the Noldor had to travel - and they took several long breaks en route! They certainly didn't have the long strides of the elves, either!

Thoughts?

 

[WatcherWraith]

Personally, I could not reconcile that timeline with the travel distance either. I think one would need to find where these people got their sources and then look further into those. But if you want, I would use your own personal experience with traveling to estimate the time it would have taken. My estimates(using the assistance of several travel sites) came out to a few months. That seems the most realistic outcome, in my mind.

 

[Elthir]

I don't know how this will register on anyone's "crazyometer", but we see Tolkien (in a text dated c. 1959, published in The Nature of Middle-Earth) imagining the Crossing of the Ice taking 144 Sun Years, with Feanor taking 72 Sun Years by ship!

I'm not saying JRRT necessarily ended up with that, however -- and I recall our own Tar-Elenion posting something interesting from a later text in NOME (although at the moment I can't recall what, except that it included the fair and mighty Galadriel). But anyway. . .

. . . I'm guessing they ate a lot of Exilic Ice Cream and Lembas

 

[d4rk3lf]

That seems the most realistic outcome, in my mind.

Yup.. me too.
3 to 6 months I'd say.. maybe even a bit longer, but no more then a year.
After all, if I recall correctly... there were only a few battles (and in first one Feanor died), and when Fingolfin arrived with his army, Feanor people were still sort of camping there, rather then having permanent settlement (which they get later).

 

[Starbrow]

I don't know how this will register on anyone's "crazyometer", but we see Tolkien (in a text dated c. 1959, published in The Nature of Middle-Earth) imagining the Crossing of the Ice taking 144 Sun Years, with Feanor taking 72 Sun Years by ship!

I'm not saying JRRT necessarily ended up with that, however -- and I recall our own Tar-Elenion posting something interesting from a later text in NOME (although at the moment I can't recall what, except that it included the fair and mighty Galadriel). But anyway. . .

. . . I'm guessing they ate a lot of Exilic Ice Cream and Lembas

What was going through his mind when he imagined the trek taking that long? Are they moving in Slo mo?

 

[Eljorahir]

144 Sun Years,

Sounds like only a gross estimate to me.

 

[Elthir]

What was going through his mind when he imagined the trek taking that long?

Maybe something like. . .

Even when Tolkien wrote The Annals of Aman using 1 Valian Year = 9.582 Sun Years (instead of the later 1 = 144), he had the Exiles take on the Grinding Ice sometime in VY 1497, and the rising of the Moon in VY 1500, when Fingolfin came at last to the north of Middle-earth.

So, without trying to figure out the exact amount of time, we have at least two years here, 1498 and 1499, to count as "full years" -- or two times 9.582 in Sun Years.

And just that much is more than 18 years!

That said, one can imagine various problems on the way to slow this journey. On the other hand, Galadriel was there. . . and Nerwen slips not!

🐾

 

[david_wendelken]

I would drop the M-e map southwards so the starting point was at Oxford in England, but this is close enough. This shows the first half of Frodo and Sam's journey.

We actually have good documentation on a medieval march across a comparable distance, the 1st Crusade.

"The departure date was set for August 15, 1096.
...
The armies recruited by Urban left from various places in France and Italy at the appointed time in August 1096. They took different routes and they all ended up in Constantinople between November 1096 and February 1097. "


It took considerably longer to fight and besiege their way from Byzantium (modern day Istanbul) to Jerusalem, but the host of the Noldor didn't have to fight past enemy armies on their way to Beleriand.

There were also some women and children with them, so that would have slowed them down a bit. Herodotus reported the Egyptians circumnavigated Africa from east to west around 600 BCE. If I remember correctly, it took 3 years, but that's because they would stop, plant a crop, harvest it, then sail onwards, repeating as necessary. (We think its a true story for the very reason he thought it beyond fanciful, the Egyptians reported the stars were on the wrong side of the boat.) So, even if the Noldor were doing that, it wouldn't take decades. And they wouldn't spend years and years on the Helcaraxe unless it was nowhere near as arduous a journey as we're led to believe - you can't grow crops there!

View attachment Y2-nxiI-a0B4z2tytTY4NTpirhu5ogryN38PfnWc-1c.webp

 

[Amalcarin]

I think Tolkien’s latest word on this matter, and the one that makes most sense, can be found in ‘Elvish Ages & Númenórean’ from 1965 (published in ‘The Nature of Middle-earth’), where it is implied that the march through Araman and Helcaraxë lasted not more (and likely less) than three solar years. I once made some relevant calculations based on the map of Arda in the First Age from ‘The Atlas of Middle-earth’ by Karen Wynn Fonstad (where the shape of Aman roughly corresponds to Tolkien’s own schemes from the ‘Ambarkanta’) with its scale. According to it, the Ñoldorin Exiles would have to go some 14 km per day even if allowed exactly one solar year for the whole march from Tirion to the shores of Beleriand, which seems reasonable. Out of curiosity, I also checked how much they would have to go in the framework of the text where they spent 144 solar years on the march, and in that case (again, for the whole journey from Tirion to the shores of Beleriand) they would have to go roughly 10 m per day.

 

[WatcherWraith]

I think Tolkien’s latest word on this matter, and the one that makes most sense, can be found in ‘Elvish Ages & Númenórean’ from 1965 (published in ‘The Nature of Middle-earth’), where it is implied that the march through Araman and Helcaraxë lasted not more (and likely less) than three solar years. I once made some relevant calculations based on the map of Arda in the First Age from ‘The Atlas of Middle-earth’ by Karen Wynn Fonstad (where the shape of Aman roughly corresponds to Tolkien’s own schemes from the ‘Ambarkanta’) with its scale. According to it, the Ñoldorin Exiles would have to go some 14 km per day even if allowed exactly one solar year for the whole march from Tirion to the shores of Beleriand, which seems reasonable. Out of curiosity, I also checked how much they would have to go in the framework of the text where they spent 144 solar years on the march, and in that case (again, for the whole journey from Tirion to the shores of Beleriand) they would have to go roughly 10 m per day.

Query: did it say how many days was in a solar year? I'm genuinely curious for other writing project stuffs.

 

[Amalcarin]

Query: did it say how many days was in a solar year? I'm genuinely curious for other writing project stuffs.

Not this text. But another text (‘Valinorian Time-Divisions’ from c. 1959) states that a solar year contains “365d. 5h. 48m. 46s. = 365d. 20,926 secs. or 365.242199074 days”.

 

[WatcherWraith]

Not this text. But another text (‘Valinorian Time-Divisions’ from c. 1959) states that a solar year contains “365d. 5h. 48m. 46s. = 365d. 20,926 secs. or 365.242199074 days”.

Thank you!

 

[d4rk3lf]

Maybe Rings of Power series will give us better picture if they do some flashback scene on this event.

Fingolfin: We must go around, over the ice, since my brother burned the ships.
Galadriel: I disagree. I'd rather spill your blood uncle, because you have not seen, what you still didn't see.
(puts a dagger in threatening way on his chest)
Fingolfin: Don't be conflicted Galadriel. What is that you're suggesting?
Galadriel: Conflicted? I say we swim. We don't need ships. I am sure it can be done.
Fingolfin: Not everyone is a swimmer here, and who knows whoom we might encounter in the water. Now enough. I am the king, you listen to me. We go over ice.
Galadriel: Fine. But I might be forced to kill 672 Ice Trolls during the travel.
Fingolfin: I am sure you will do fine.

 

[david_wendelken]

Maybe Rings of Power series will give us better picture if they do some flashback scene on this event.

Fingolfin: We must go around, over the ice, since my brother burned the ships.
Galadriel: I disagree. I'd rather spill your blood uncle, because you have not seen, what you still didn't see.
(puts a dagger in threatening way on his chest)
Fingolfin: Don't be conflicted Galadriel. What is that you're suggesting?
Galadriel: Conflicted? I say we swim. We don't need ships. I am sure it can be done.
Fingolfin: Not everyone is a swimmer here, and who knows whoom we might encounter in the water. Now enough. I am the king, you listen to me. We go over ice.
Galadriel: Fine. But I might be forced to kill 672 Ice Trolls during the travel.
Fingolfin: I am sure you will do fine.

Your sarcasm over Rings of Power's take on young Galadriel is dripping all over my screen!

 

[d4rk3lf]

I am sorry my friend.
In my defense, I still put more effort then them, writing these dialogues.

 

[Elthir]

I think Tolkien’s latest word on this matter, and the one that makes most sense, can be found in ‘Elvish Ages & Númenórean’ from 1965 ( . . . ), where it is implied that the march through Araman and Helcaraxë lasted not more (and likely less) than three solar years.

This text was raised in an earlier thread, and I realize you wrote "implied" here of course, but I feel like I need more convincing. . . or am I missing something?

It's probably me, since this
morning I spent about ten
minutes doing. . . this. . .

 

[Amalcarin]

This text was raised in an earlier thread, and I realize you wrote "implied" here of course, but I feel like I need more convincing. . . or am I missing something?

It's probably me, since this
morning I spent about ten
minutes doing. . . this. . .

I do not know whether this was discussed in the earlier thread, but what I was referring to is this:

"The March [back to Middle-earth] took a whole life-year of the survivors at whatever rate they were living, sc. to the young [but] “grown” it added 1 growth-year (3 löar); to the older and full-grown 1 life-year (144 löar)."

Since the idea is that the survivors of the March aged quicker than was normal due to a greater expenditure of their “youth”, ageing to the equivalent of 3 löar in case of those not yet full-grown only makes sense if the actual duration of the March was no more than 3 löar.

(Sorry for the lack of text formating – I am not at home, and I am unable to use it on my phone for some reason.)

 

[Elthir]

Thanks for responding!

So far (!), my interpretation of this text is that the burden of the March cost the younger Elf
(an Elf less than 24 Growth Years) the equivalent of 3 Sun Years (thus 1 Growth Year), while it
cost the "mature" Elf (but not old Elf -- "mature" meaning those Elves who had simply reached
24 Growth Years) 1 Life Year, or the equivalent of 144 Sun Years. . .

. . . with the actual amount of time it took to cross the ice not being specified.

 

[Amalcarin]

Thanks for responding!

So far (!), my interpretation of this text is that the burden of the March cost the younger Elf
(an Elf less than 24 Growth Years) the equivalent of 3 Sun Years (thus 1 Growth Year), while it
cost the "mature" Elf (but not old Elf -- "mature" meaning those Elves who had simply reached
24 Growth Years) 1 Life Year, or the equivalent of 144 Sun Years. . .

. . . with the actual amount of time it took to cross the ice not being specified.

The actual length of the March is not directly stated, but if it were more than 3 SY, then the March costing 1 GY to not-yet-full-grown Elves would mean that their rate of growth was slowed down during this burdensome March, and I do not think this makes sense.

 

[Elthir]

Hmm. I see your point Amalcarin. In other words, if I understand you (and Tar-Elenion, who brought the same text up in the earlier thread I mentioned) correctly, the cost should be "more ageing" for both groups of Elves, and even though the "24" year old Elf is still young, he or she has nonetheless reached the Life Year stage, and thus the cost is the equivalent of 144 loar.

A March of 3 loar or less, while making more sense to mortals and mortal cats, would be a significant change from the C. 1959 direct statement of 144 loar, but. . . if it be so. . . then it be so.

That said, a thought: could it be seen as a "negative cost" for a younger Elf to grow slower during the ice crossing, because the hardship saps them?

In any case, my brain hurts a little.