Differences between Arnor and Gondor

[wondering]

On further thought regarding the possibly always fairly thinly populated nature of Arnor, at least concerning non-Dunedain: Appendix A says about Earnur's northern expedition: "So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor."

While Gondor at this point was much larger and more powerful than it was at the time of the War of the Ring, it was already well past its peak (post Kin-strife, post Great Plague). If "a small sending-force" of post Plague Gondor was really huge by their standards, that might suggest that the Arthedain vs Angmar war was fought by pretty small armies on both sides - maybe more like Migration Period warbands than full-on armies. The Dunedain were well diminished by this point, but the non-Dunedain humans wouldn't have been touched by that. But if they were never numerous to start with...

(The fact that the very good farmland of the Shire was abandoned or mostly abandoned by 1601 TA, so that it could be granted to the Hobbits, also leans in that direction. Possibly since Angmar was northeast of Arthedain, the Kings of Arthedain had to move their apparently limited population eastward to maintain the lines against Angmar - and possibly Rhudaur - leaving western areas like the Shire fallow?)

 

[Vardarianna]

I just found the thread and it has too many posts to look through it so apologies if I said something that has been said before.

Arnor was founded by Elenedil, his ships landed in the north of Middle Earth and he was helped by Gil-Galad. the capital was Annuminas

Gondor was founded by Isildur and Anarion, who co-rule it. Isildur was in Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul) and Anarion in Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith), but they weren't king, Elendil was the king of both kingdoms and they ruled in his name.

When Elendil and Anarion were killed, Isildur became king of both kingdoms, but he didn't want to stay in Gondor, so close to were his father and brother died, so he trusted Gondor to one of Anarion's sons, Meneldil and he went north with the purpose of taken his throne in Arnor, but he was killed by orcs in the Gladden Fields along with his 3 eldest sons (Elendur, Aratan and Ciryon). His youngest son, Valandil was too young to be in the war and had stayed in Rivendell. It was a while until he could assume the throne.

After the death of Earendur, his children fought among themselves and Arnor was split in 3 kingdoms: Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur. Rhudaur soon felt under the influence of Angmar and during the rule of Argeleb I the wars against Angmar started, they progressively weakened the kingdom and the last king, Arvedui was defeated, the help from Gondor came too late and Arvedui drown when the ship sent by Cirdan to rescue him sunk.

then there was not kingdom and Arvedui's descendants became simply chieftains, from Aranarth, the first to Aragorn, the last.

Gondor on the other hand didn't have such internal problems until much later (the kin strife), was ruled mostly by capable kings at the beginning, and while it had its share of enemies, they weren't as bad as Angmar.

Yet, although it survived, it was just a shadow of what it was before, the kin strife, a plague and the continuous wars (especially against the wainriders) weakened it, the last king, Earner disappeared when he accepted a challenge by the witch king and the stewards governed Gondor ever since, until Aragorn, they were forced to make alliances to defend Gondor (e.g. the Rohirim).

Thanks for your take on the 'Differences Between Arnor and Gondor'.
I do recommend reading back through the posts in this thread as most of them are pretty good.

---

On further thought regarding the possibly always fairly thinly populated nature of Arnor, at least concerning non-Dunedain: Appendix A says about Earnur's northern expedition: "So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor."

While Gondor at this point was much larger and more powerful than it was at the time of the War of the Ring, it was already well past its peak (post Kin-strife, post Great Plague). If "a small sending-force" of post Plague Gondor was really huge by their standards, that might suggest that the Arthedain vs Angmar war was fought by pretty small armies on both sides - maybe more like Migration Period warbands than full-on armies. The Dunedain were well diminished by this point, but the non-Dunedain humans wouldn't have been touched by that. But if they were never numerous to start with...

(The fact that the very good farmland of the Shire was abandoned or mostly abandoned by 1601 TA, so that it could be granted to the Hobbits, also leans in that direction. Possibly since Angmar was northeast of Arthedain, the Kings of Arthedain had to move their apparently limited population eastward to maintain the lines against Angmar - and possibly Rhudaur - leaving western areas like the Shire fallow?)

I've always had it in my mind that this disparity of population between the two kingdoms was always fairly great even if Elendil had four ships with him when they flled Numenor, and his sons Isildur and Anarion had five ships. Consiidering what they took with them (palantiri, Stone of Erech) I wouldn't think the difference of the numbers of the faithful would have been that much greater with only one more ship. So that leaves the local population, be they 'middle men, or Numenorean colonists that came to Middle-earth through the 2nd age. I also put weight to the whole intermingling issue, where Gondor began to intermingle with the Rhovanions beginning with the alliance between the two when they fought the Easterlings circa 1244 III. This, though it 'diluted' Numenorean bloodlines as feared, it also added numbers quicker than Arnor who tended to keep to their Numenorean ancestry.

I guess another topic would be a population one...

• How many Numenoreans were in the northwest of Middle-earth (Pelargir northward and west of the Anduin) at the time of the downfall?
• How many Numenorean faithful were on each of the nine ships that Elendil, Isildur, and Anorian had when they fled Numenor. A sub-question to this is 'How big were these nine Numenorean ships?
• What were the birthrates of the Middle-earth Numenoreans from the time of the downfall of Numenor to say, 1300 III?

I could go on with questions. I find this whole issue fascinating!

 

[wondering]

Thanks for your take on the 'Differences Between Arnor and Gondor'.
I do recommend reading back through the posts in this thread as most of them are pretty good.

---

I've always had it in my mind that this disparity of population between the two kingdoms was always fairly great even if Elendil had four ships with him when they flled Numenor, and his sons Isildur and Anarion had five ships. Consiidering what they took with them (palantiri, Stone of Erech) I wouldn't think the difference of the numbers of the faithful would have been that much greater with only one more ship. So that leaves the local population, be they 'middle men, or Numenorean colonists that came to Middle-earth through the 2nd age. I also put weight to the whole intermingling issue, where Gondor began to intermingle with the Rhovanions beginning with the alliance between the two when they fought the Easterlings circa 1244 III. This, though it 'diluted' Numenorean bloodlines as feared, it also added numbers quicker than Arnor who tended to keep to their Numenorean ancestry.

I guess another topic would be a population one...

• How many Numenoreans were in the northwest of Middle-earth (Pelargir northward and west of the Anduin) at the time of the downfall?
• How many Numenorean faithful were on each of the nine ships that Elendil, Isildur, and Anorian had when they fled Numenor. A sub-question to this is 'How big were these nine Numenorean ships?
• What were the birthrates of the Middle-earth Numenoreans from the time of the downfall of Numenor to say, 1300 III?

I could go on with questions. I find this whole issue fascinating!

Yes, the mixing with non-Numenoreans was key for Gondor's survival.

As I said in this thread, https://thetolkien.forum/threads/nature-of-middle-earth-explains-the-early-decline-of-arnor.37554/ , I think that "undiminished original" Numenoreans were not really a 'viable' population long term outside the protected environment of Numenor (no enemies, no disease, etc.)

As for your questions:

1. I think there were probably a lot of Numenoreans in Middle-earth overall (one of the Nature of Middle Earth essays on the Numenoreans says that Numenor proper was 15 million at the end, and that the colonies in M-E were a significant relief of 'population pressure' in Numenor: so they must have been millions) but the majority of these were presumably King's Men in the farther south colonies, far from Lindon.

Still, even as a minority party, I would imagine the Faithful Numenoreans in Middle-earth were pretty numerous: the increasing hostility in Numenor would have been a strong incentive to emigrate, and within about a century after the Downfall Arnor and Gondor were able to muster truly enormous armies for the Last Alliance. Nature of Middle-Earth tells us that Numenorean populations reproduced slowly, marrying very late and rarely having more than four children, so the population must already have been large at the time of the Downfall.

I would suggest that if there must have been millions of Numenorean colonists in M-E overall, at least hundreds of thousands must have been Faithful.

2. IMO, the nine ships were huge by any pre-industrial standard, about as large as wooden ships can be made to be. There were some pretty huge wooden ships in the ancient world, but I think they tended to be not very seaworthy ... but the Numenoreans may have had ways around that; they definitely had some special skills, like what was used to make Orthanc and the outer wall of Minas Tirith). So IMO there could have been as much as a few thousand people per ship.

Still, they could only have been a small proportion of the population (even if it was 3000 per ship - say 21,000 total - if the total population was hundreds of thousands...) But the nine ships were very significant because of the royalty (Elendil/Isildur/Anarion) and the special objects they brought - the palantiri, White Tree, Stone of Erech, Ring of Barahir, etc.

3. Very low by our historical standards, to levels pretty much unheard of until very modern (second half of the 20th century) post-demographic-transition societies, IMO. "Lives of the Numenoreans" in Nature of Middle Earth tells us that Numenoreans married very late (usually at 40 to 45 for women, even later for men), had few children overall compared to preindustrial real world humans: they "seldom had more than four children in each marriage", and had long intervals between children - never less than five years between successive children, more often ten, sometimes 15-20. That means an extremely long generation time, longer than is possible for real world humans. At the time you mention they were still mostly "Numenorean", not mostly normal humans with somewhat lengthened lifespan, so the late marriage / long intervals between children / few children would likely still apply.