Durin VII - "The Decline of TTF" and Moria

Aulë said:

I'm going to keep this short and sweet.

People on this forum are a sensitive bunch. But arguing with them is a fruitless effort since they are also stubborn as mules.

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That might just be the best post I've read since my return here.

It must just be the Australian in us, musn't it, Aulë? Just that old okker attitude.

Cheers,

Úlairi.

Úlairi said:

That might just be the best post I've read since my return here.

It must just be the Australian in us, musn't it, Aulë? Just that old okker attitude.

Cheers,

Úlairi.

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We aren't known for beating around the bush.

Aulë said:

We aren't known for beating around the bush.

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Or voting for him!

Cheers,

Úlairi.

Turgon said:

Pfft... Walter was using a wheel chair five years ago - I'm sure he's moved on to a bathchair by now...

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Ancalagon said:

Most likely a luxury, floating commode

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No, a walking stick it is by now...

Just come a little closer, so I can make you acquainted with it, my lads...

And you're getting this idea from one personal insult? Honestly, if you want to switch me off then tell me to go away. I can guarantee you if there is enough of you that want me to do so I'll be more than happy to oblige. I can take personal attacks; they often precipitate more animated and interesting discussions in threads. Everyone seems far to damn apathetic these days and complain when such an incredibly weak comment is made about another member.

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If this is what you want, then it does seem one way to keep the peace, though it wouldn't be the conclusion I'd want. I know what it is like to feel like you are under a personal attack by a member or group of members and sometimes I simply had to step back and leave that particular argument. To me this is a better result than having people take sides.

Honestly, I'm not getting this from any particular post/insult/comment. I'm getting this from the attitude of some people who have made it known in private that they are upset with things you have said. Some more so than others, but personally, if I start hearing "Either he goes or I go" I'd say "Can't you just ignore each other?" If Mary, Joe, Sam, and Anne are in a club and Mary can't stand Sam but likes Joe and Anne and Mary has an option just to make Sam invisible, it would be better for the club if she does so, just so that Joe and Anne aren't pulled into the fray.

I didn't even want to get into this myself, but I thought suggesting and alternative to banning and quitting where members could handle their own issues instead of the moderators having to solve what is getting profoundly personal for some of the people involved.

It's kind of hard to ignore people on a discussion forum - you know, as we're all here to discuss. What would you recomend a member do if they wanted to ignore someone and that person was posting in all the discussions they wanted to post in. It would be ignorent and downright stupid to ignore that persons reply, especially if that person replied to your post...it's a nightmare of a cycle.

Either that member ignores the person bothering him/her, and comes off as a big fat prick, or that member continues to engage in discussions with that person, which in the end lead back to insults and jabs.

So, the way I see it, either the member sacrifices his/her own pride and self respect, or the forum suffers. Either way, I'm not to keen on the options.

I personally would not see someone who ignores another person as a jerk, rather as someone who acknowledges an impasse. It takes a certain amount of detachment because you know that if you stop arguing a point the other person will assume that they've won, but the trick is not to care, and from experience in debates you don't have to acknowledge every poster in a thread, only the ones you consider to be injecting valuable content at that point.

Presumably if you have someone on ignore, you won't even know they are posting in your thread, which can lead to some confusing gaps (As I know from my habit of ignoring people in WoW chat. I don't believe I currently have anyone on the forum ignored, though I have ignored one or two people in the past for personal reasons) but it is extremely doable. Just pretend that everything the ignored individual is saying relates only to how hot Elijah Wood is, it'll make you feel better.

Now, as I said, this is only referring to the extreme case where this individual is making your forum experience so bad that you want to leave or feel as if you can't rest until they leave. If you can't be at peace as long as the other individual is posting, edit them off your personal forum experience.

Just remember, there is only so much power we mods have. In response to a person being rude or divisive, we have only a few weapons the wet noodle slap of "infractions" or the blunt instrument of "banishment." There really isn't a good middle ground at this point. So if you don't like what a person is saying but don't feel as if they should be banned from the forum, the mods really can't help you. If you feel things have escalated to the point where we should whip out the ban stick, that's another issue entirely, but I still think the ignore button is a good middle ground.

I know if I were on a forum and felt no one was listening to what I was saying any more I might change the method with which I was communicating. Or, if I didn't feel the opinion of those who I was in debate with mattered, I'd have to ask myself, why am I bothering to debate them in the first place?

HLGStrider said:

I personally would not see someone who ignores another person as a jerk, rather as someone who acknowledges an impasse. It takes a certain amount of detachment because you know that if you stop arguing a point the other person will assume that they've won, but the trick is not to care, and from experience in debates you don't have to acknowledge every poster in a thread, only the ones you consider to be injecting valuable content at that point.

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Yet you all seem to be clamouring for a newbie injection as you can't seem to kick the habit! Hate to break it ya sista, but noobs are going to be the ones most likely ignored in any debate! Does that therefore mean that they whom you all so desire don't contribute valuable content? If you don't know what I mean, go back and look at the Glory Days and see how many poor noobs get slain (and I know a few of them by me - but hey, at least I acknowledged their existence!) I knew it; some of you are just sitting around waiting to become the Valar of The Tolkien Forum: The Great Powers of Arda! I want noobs so I can ignore them and look awesome by comparison. Astoundingly hypocritical...

HLGStrider said:

Presumably if you have someone on ignore, you won't even know they are posting in your thread, which can lead to some confusing gaps (As I know from my habit of ignoring people in WoW chat. I don't believe I currently have anyone on the forum ignored, though I have ignored one or two people in the past for personal reasons) but it is extremely doable. Just pretend that everything the ignored individual is saying relates only to how hot Elijah Wood is, it'll make you feel better.

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Hypocrisy certainly isn't a blanket that keeps me warm at night.

Whether you ignore them in threads (for lack of valuable content) or simply click the ignore button (for "personal" reasons) you're detracting from the purpose of the boards: discussion. In the case of noobs, you may as well click the ignore button if they're not worth response for their lack of contribution. People accuse me of chasing them away and preventing them from posting in my threads - but if you in your own threads purport to be noob-friendly and then just simply ignore their existence you're practically shunning them to an even further extent! After TTF then sinks into another slump you'll point that finger right back at me...

Hypocrisy, thy name is TTF!

HLGStrider said:

Now, as I said, this is only referring to the extreme case where this individual is making your forum experience so bad that you want to leave or feel as if you can't rest until they leave. If you can't be at peace as long as the other individual is posting, edit them off your personal forum experience.

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Yeah, it would be nice to edit out all the BS, but you know what? At least I can deal with it...

HLGStrider said:

Just remember, there is only so much power we mods have. In response to a person being rude or divisive, we have only a few weapons the wet noodle slap of "infractions" or the blunt instrument of "banishment." There really isn't a good middle ground at this point. So if you don't like what a person is saying but don't feel as if they should be banned from the forum, the mods really can't help you. If you feel things have escalated to the point where we should whip out the ban stick, that's another issue entirely, but I still think the ignore button is a good middle ground.

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Still wondering if I should respond to this as I'm unsure of whether it's valuable content or not.

HLGStrider said:

I know if I were on a forum and felt no one was listening to what I was saying any more I might change the method with which I was communicating. Or, if I didn't feel the opinion of those who I was in debate with mattered, I'd have to ask myself, why am I bothering to debate them in the first place?

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Why indeed?

HLGStrider said:

Honestly, I'm not getting this from any particular post/insult/comment. I'm getting this from the attitude of some people who have made it known in private that they are upset with things you have said.

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Let them come forth and talk to me openly instead of complaining about me in private. It's just an internet forum; I can't bite your head off physically... But I'm starting to think that there is this underlying tone that I'm not wanted here; and I think the time has come for me to leave. I'm not saying this for lamentation from those who may want me here; or for any personal glory. I actually find some of the "newer oldies" to be wonderfully enthralling and they are my primary reason for being here. But, I can't help but feel that in an environment where everyone is so easily offended that the truly beautiful flame that once burned here so brightly was extinguished long ago by the strangehold of complaisance.

Cheers,

Úlairi.

Perhaps the feeling that you are not wanted comes from the fact that even when someone is sort of on your side and would rather not see you banned, you turn around and attack them by misinterpreting things they say in posts? Just maybe?

In the case of noobs, you may as well click the ignore button if they're not worth response for their lack of contribution. People accuse me of chasing them away and preventing them from posting in my threads - but if you in your own threads purport to be noob-friendly and then just simply ignore their existence you're practically shunning them to an even further extent!

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Noobs I don't mind. I never would ignore someone for being unaware/uninformed but I would ignore someone for being constantly on the attack, for turning everything I say into a rant about my personality, for choosing to read everything I say in the wrong spirit . . . there is simply no way to argue meaningfully if someone hijacks the thread where I simply said, "If you personally find someone to be rude and can't handle their posts, ignore them" into "Let's all call HLG a hypocrit because she would ignore people who are wanting to know if Tom Bombadil was Gandalf's cousin!"

Honestly, if I wanted to read into your posts I would say that you panicked because you thought too many people would ignore you personally and so your relavence would be threatened, but that would be an assumption, and Firawyn can tell you what they say about people who assume.

We were all "noobs", at one point.

I think it would do you well to remember that, Úlairi.

Noob. What does that actually mean? Someone who is new to Tolkien; or someone who has read Tolkien’s work for say, thirty years, but is new to the forum? Anyway, I think it’s ironic that Barley was concerned his "Decline of the Tolkien Forum" thread would die out with a thud many moons ago; yet it was so huge it actually spawned a satellite thread that is presently on fire. Maybe the Innkeeper should not be too hasty when selling out to Dunkin' Donuts .

HLGStrider said:

Perhaps the feeling that you are not wanted comes from the fact that even when someone is sort of on your side and would rather not see you banned, you turn around and attack them by misinterpreting things they say in posts? Just maybe?

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Maybe, but there are a few other reasons I guarantee you that. If people are whinging about me in private that would likely be a fair assumption. When I said "some of you" I wasn't referring specifically to one person or you in particular, Elgee. I'm just beginning to wonder these days, is all... I apologize for the misinterpretation.

HLGStrider said:

Noobs I don't mind. I never would ignore someone for being unaware/uninformed but I would ignore someone for being constantly on the attack, for turning everything I say into a rant about my personality, for choosing to read everything I say in the wrong spirit . . .

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Constantly on the attack? Neither am I constantly on the attack or even on the attack at all!!! I've felt from Day One back here that there's been some strong bias against my return I've had to defend my position. People seem to forget more easily than they forgive. Unfortunately the best form of defence (to my limited understanding) is to often go on the attack. In my own opening thread I was attacked. That's just the way I've felt. I'm sorry to take it out on you personally, Elgee, however it just seems that as a Moderator who's receiving complaints about me I have a little personal distaste for authority figures around here in general.

HLGStrider said:

there is simply no way to argue meaningfully if someone hijacks the thread where I simply said, "If you personally find someone to be rude and can't handle their posts, ignore them" into "Let's all call HLG a hypocrit because she would ignore people who are wanting to know if Tom Bombadil was Gandalf's cousin!"

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That's still a legitimate question. Shouldn't ignore them for that at all...

HLGStrider said:

Honestly, if I wanted to read into your posts I would say that you panicked because you thought too many people would ignore you personally and so your relavence would be threatened, but that would be an assumption, and Firawyn can tell you what they say about people who assume.

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Yeah, Firawyn's already explained this. I think your assumption is not only fair but quite insightful. Touché, Elgee. I panicked not because of a fear of my own relevance (I couldnt truly give a cr@p) but mostly for the reasons that Firawyn explained above (which I completely agree with, Fir) that TTF should not become a place where we can simply switch people off because I know I wouldn't be the only one affected and I truly believe TTF would suffer because of it - and that was the whole point of this thread in the first place.

Firawyn said:

We were all "noobs", at one point.

I think it would do you well to remember that, Úlairi.

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More than you realize, Fir. Read my comments about Cían here.

Big Blue said:

Noob. What does that actually mean? Someone who is new to Tolkien; or someone who has read Tolkien’s work for say, thirty years, but is new to the forum? Anyway, I think it’s ironic that Barley was concerned his "Decline of the Tolkien Forum" thread would die out with a thud many moons ago; yet it was so huge it actually spawned a satellite thread that is presently on fire. Maybe the Innkeeper should not be too hasty when selling out to Dunkin' Donuts .

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Shut up, noob.

No, I would say a noob is someone new to the works of Tolkien.

Yeah, actually this thread derived from Aulë's idea of who would be Durin VII in the Moria reference. However people have stopped posting their Durin VII's all of a sudden...

Cheers,

Úlairi.

"Noob" is a leetspeak thing Illuin. See here.

I actually did an English paper on leetspeak a few years ago. Learned alot.


When I said we were all noobs at one point, I meant it in both contexts. Both new to Tolkien, and/or new to The Tolkien Forum. When entering into either of those realms for the first times...it can be very intimidating.

Haha. For me, being new to the forum world in general (missed that cusp by a few years), it was learning internet lingo... words like "noob". The only things I was aware of were LOL and WTF .

It's pretty easy to get, once you understand the concept. Helps with text messaging.

"nvr du tdy wut u cn do tmro"

Is that authentic internet shorthand?

Illuin said:

Is that authentic internet shorthand?

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No, a keyboard defect...

LOL careful there men. Don't forget who was brought up in the computer age, in this conversation!

When you were my age...

When you were my age...

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Still on a quest for fire.

Firawyn said:

When I said we were all noobs at one point, I meant it in both contexts. Both new to Tolkien, and/or new to The Tolkien Forum. When entering into either of those realms for the first times...it can be very intimidating.

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You mean newb (or newbie) not noob. Newb is someone new, doesn't know much and makes mistakes. Noob is someone who has been around for a while claims to know stuff yet still makes the same mistakes as a newb. Newb is not offensive where noob is.
Such a common mistake coming from a person who has done a paper on 1337?