No. No one else than Ilúvatar could deal with their souls/spirits/fëar/whatever.But is it only me and Eriol who think that in fact the only true authority to have had real power over their souls was Iluvatar?!?
Ilúvatar also gave all inhabitants of Arda somethin special: Free will!
But HOW could this be?!?! WHO gave immortality to nine mortals?!?
Then was Andreth right to say (I'm too lazy to find the exact quote nowWhat I do think is that their spirits were able to somehow be kept on Arda by the power of the Rings, instead of leaving as other Men's souls. They were already dead by the time they became wraiths; or, in another way to put it, they had already abandoned their bodies.
Therefore, as soon as the Nine are rendered ineffectual, their souls depart.
Impossible! ...Well, at least not for the Elves and the Vala (I suppose the Maia too). They were all bound WITHIN Arda!To me, dying means a soul departing from Arda
That's right:
From the Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days.But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the Gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.
Well technically only Men were given Free Will to change their 'fates' even if it were set in the Ainulindalë; whereas Elves are bound to Arda and have fates and destinies (There is a great quote to back this up but I'm too lazy to look for itOriginally posted by Arvedui
Ilúvatar also gave all inhabitants of Arda somethin special: Free will!
as I said in my previous post, it was Merry who pierced the spell that protected the Witch King, exposing him to Eowyn. I have always seen the location of the strike as important, much like Achillies heel, it was the one spot where he was vulnerable. The reason I think this way is that Eowyns sword breaks upon striking the king,it doesn't evaporate or whatever, like Merry's. from back in "A knife in the dark" Aragorn saysNo other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will
not all blades break. Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man.but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king
Let’s compare the two gifts to Elves and Men:'immortality' (in my world only within the limited longevity of the Earth)
In other words, immortality is only confined among the circles of the world. Also, this immortality seems to me that refers to the “hroa” (body) and not the “fea” (spirit). We assume that the fea is immortal even after the end of Time (at least that is what the elvish lore claims).The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning.
The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world.
But to what extent? And with which cost? Since this “transformation” was beyond the “laws”, it eventually became a burden to the “transformed”. Sauron could not change the nature of Men without side-effects. And besides, he didn’t care, as long as Men were lured.Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.
The “immortality” they got, I think was a deceit. After their death (which is certain to have happened with the destruction of the 9 rings), they did not stay on earth, like the Elves do, they did not get to a similar place like the Halls of Mandos.Men and Elves (the firstborn) respectively, and could not be altered by anyone (even a Power or god)
Spirits. We shouldn’t confuse the meanings we have in our world. They had still hroa and fea, just their hroa was not part of the Seen world. This is different from not having hroa at all, i.e. being just a fea that waits for its fate.
I disagree with this explanation of the quote you provided. I find it just one of the linguistic tricks that the professor used to provide a epic tone in his writings. As I said before, I don’t think that the immortality of the Ringwraiths was authentic (like the elvish).by Arvedui
IMO, this indicates that the Lord of the Nazgul, at least, would be heard again at some later time.
Still, I do not consider this as decisive evidense. Your quotes more than indicate that their immortality is bound to the One Ring.
246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by [color=sky blue]Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held)[/color] had primary control of their wills.
Originally posted by Arvedui
As ithrynluin stated, their fëar is indestructible. But if we follow that reasoning a little further down that path, then all Men are immortal, aren't they?
Originally posted by Eriol
There was no substance in a ringwraith body, as I see it. It is not an "invisible" body, it is not a body at all.
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
But HOW could this be?!?! WHO gave immortality to nine mortals?!?
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Then was Andreth right to say (I'm too lazy to find the exact quote now) that by dying Men understand when the body dies?!? Was the body - destruction death to Men?
Originally posted by Glomund
We can assume it was a ancient blade, since she was of the ruling house, but it was Merrys blade that mattered, it pierced the kings "protections", for lack of a better word, and left him open to being destroyed by Eowyn, her blade didn't matter, just her being a female.
Originally posted by Glomund
Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man.
A lot of sense!Arvedui, what do you make of this?
I might read this in the wrong way, but it is nowhere stated that she needed to be a she. The only thing said about this, is from Glorfindel: "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man.
My opinion too.Originally posted by Arvedui
gate7ole, IMO, made the most convincing connections, and I believe he is right: the Ringwraiths were not immortal, at least not in the true sense. They just had prolonged life, and would go wherever any Men went after life on Arda.
Eru: "But the power you sought, was the power to dominate others, and thus to impose your will on others, and thus limit their free will!"Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
******
Eru: "What have you sorry lot got to say for yourselves, then?
Nazgûl: "Well you see, we were tricked by this jeweler that gave us these beautiful rings, and before we knew it, our free will was gone...."
Eru: Didn't I tell you that you Men are my children and I am your true Master? Why did you obey the false masters?
Nazgûl: Ah! But where have YOU been all this time, Master?! You promissed us free will and proclaimed us as your "proteges"...But all we knew was wars and evil and darkness in our lands...! We needed power and we got it!
******
And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thou thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'
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