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Are Ringwraiths immortal?

*Avoiding Eriol's question concerning swords*;)

But is it only me and Eriol who think that in fact the only true authority to have had real power over their souls was Iluvatar?!?
No. No one else than Ilúvatar could deal with their souls/spirits/fëar/whatever.
But on the other hand, we witness a Maia!! playing with Eru's creation changing the most essential feature!!!
Ilúvatar also gave all inhabitants of Arda somethin special: Free will!
The way I understand it, is that all Elves and Men were free to do whatever they wished when they were alive on Arda, but when their spirits left its housing, there would come a time of judgement. Mandos would take care of the Elves, and Ilúvatar himself would take care of Men.
(I would not like to be one of the Ringwraiths, standing in front of Ilúvatar to receive my doom:eek: )

Very good points Lhun. IMO you just shot down the idea of any reappearance of the Ringwraiths, as I can't beleive that one Maia may give any Men the same features and/or "advantages" as he has himself.
 
Originally posted by Eriol
I don't think Sauron gave them immortality, their spirits were already immortal.
But HOW could this be?!?! WHO gave immortality to nine mortals?!?

What I do think is that their spirits were able to somehow be kept on Arda by the power of the Rings, instead of leaving as other Men's souls. They were already dead by the time they became wraiths; or, in another way to put it, they had already abandoned their bodies.

Therefore, as soon as the Nine are rendered ineffectual, their souls depart.
Then was Andreth right to say (I'm too lazy to find the exact quote now ;) ) that by dying Men understand when the body dies?!? Was the body - destruction death to Men?
Mmmm...... I would not think that Valar and Elves would then feel so great a respect to Men's fate!!! The hroar of any creature in ME was never too much of importance... That's of course my own personal opinion. It is a kind of an idea interwoven within all the stories, tales and it feels as if it is Tolkien's himself .

But back to the wraiths - so, to sum it up so far, most of you do think them as immortal! YOU, REBELS! :eek: ;) :D
 
... I didn't follow that, Lhun. To me, dying means a soul departing from Arda. I think Men and Elves would have thought that way too. That is why they say that of the Eldar Lúthien alone truly died.

It is precisely because the destruction of the body is not death that the Ringwraiths could operate. Spirits need a body, the only exception is the Ringwraiths, because their souls were then tied to the Nine -- in effect, each of the Nine was "the body" of a ringwraith. And when they lost their power the ringwraiths lost their body and departed.

Likewise the Dead from the Path of the Dead were held by their Oath. However, and it is a big however, there is no sign that those guys could operate on matter itself. They are never shown to operate by any other means than fear. Even Brego's skeleton is found clawing at a door, which to me means panic. to operate on matter they would need a body.

This "power over souls" that is amazing you so much was also yielded by Isildur in that curse. Their souls became bound by the Oath. It is not a "Sauron special". What is a Sauron special is the ability to make these spirits effective over matter.

Remember that the Witch-King is not only a Ringwraith but also a sorcerer (Gandalf's description of him to Denethor and Pippin). That means that "ringwraithdom" in itself is not sorcery. It is simply the ability to work without a body. "Simply", of course, is a bad word -- the guys could not be killed by any but the toughest weapons, they had the Black Breath, they inspired panic as the disembodied spirits always do (cf. Gimli on Paths of Dead)...
 
To me, dying means a soul departing from Arda
Impossible! ...Well, at least not for the Elves and the Vala (I suppose the Maia too). They were all bound WITHIN Arda!

Now, Men... here comes the big question - were their souls allowed to leave Arda? If so, eventually Men become much more immortal than any Elf or/and Vala!
Therefore, could it be that somehow knowing of this unique power, the evil Maia just used this uniqueness although not understanding it?:confused:
And this unique power then can explain the exceptional power of the human spirits ( the Ringwraiths, the outhbreakers...).
Did this power need a material body to excercise it's presence and influence ? In other words - did the wraiths and the oathbreakers need bodies to win what they wanted? I think that they did not.
In fact, in both cases we witness as if some strong wish to be released from this world as soon as possible and go ....where?
Did the spirits of the ringwraiths and the oathbreakers know where they would go when released by the spells of rings/oaths ?
 
The souls of Men go elsewhere, they do not remain in Arda. I suggest a good debate on this topic between the Guild of Tolkienologists and the Guild of Outcasts, filled with quotes :D. I remember that Finduilas posted the names of Men among Elves: "the Guests" are among them, referring to how they are really "not of Arda". Also, the story of Beren and Lúthien shows quite clearly that Men's souls go elsewhere.

A disembodied spirit of a man goes to this place soon after death (again, see Beren and Lúthien). The exceptions are held by something: Rings, the Oath... as soon as this "something" is over, they leave Arda. The spirits need bodies to remain in Arda (for their body is made of the stuff of Arda; once they depart from the body, their spirits depart because Arda is not its proper place).

And no one knows where these souls go, or what happens to them; not even the Valar, with the possible exception of Mandos, and therefore certainly not the ringwraiths or oathbreakers.

Your contention that Men could be more immortal then Elves or Valar is Finrod's comment in the Athrabeth, that since the souls of Men depart, they are not bound by Arda's finite existence like the Elves'. Who knows?
 
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Now, Men... here comes the big question - were their souls allowed to leave Arda? If so, eventually Men become much more immortal than any Elf or/and Vala!
That's right:
But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the Gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.
From the Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days.

Originally posted by Arvedui
Ilúvatar also gave all inhabitants of Arda somethin special: Free will!
Well technically only Men were given Free Will to change their 'fates' even if it were set in the Ainulindalë; whereas Elves are bound to Arda and have fates and destinies (There is a great quote to back this up but I'm too lazy to look for it :p).

:)
 
I'll skip back to the question of Eowyn's sword. We can assume it was a ancient blade, since she was of the ruling house, but it was Merrys blade that mattered, it pierced the kings "protections", for lack of a better word, and left him open to being destroyed by Eowyn, her blade didn't matter, just her being a female.
 
hmmm... so if Éowyn struck gold with a blow, even without Merry's contribution, it wouldn't have any effect?

I don't think I agree with that. But I really have no idea.
 
I don't believe that a sword had to be of some great lineage to hurt one of the Nazgul. Just think about it: what does lineage actually do for a sword? Narsil (Anduril) had great lineage, but it was a powerful sword to begin with. The physical forms of the Nazgul were just like anybody else's. They could be killed and destroyed by normal, human means. Their spirits could survive, such as when the Nazgul were drowned in the Bruinen and their bodies were destroyed, but their spirits endured.
 
Ah, it's a recurring theme in fantasy books.. The ancient sword of [person], forged by the great wizard [dude] in the deeps of time coming to save the day. :rolleyes:
Anyway, it shouldn't be regarded realistically, I think. But if you must, I'd say it only added to the morale of the friendly troops and the fear of the enemies.
Yes the Nazgûl could be killed by anybody, if they got in close enough. But they are formidable opponents, and even Aragorn had a tough time fending them off.
 
I agree that the lineage of a sword is not the most important part, and the 8 lesser ringwraiths could be "killed" by anyone with the courage to face them, and skill to beat them. But the big guy is a different matter, cause when Merry sees his sword disolve, the book states
No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will
as I said in my previous post, it was Merry who pierced the spell that protected the Witch King, exposing him to Eowyn. I have always seen the location of the strike as important, much like Achillies heel, it was the one spot where he was vulnerable. The reason I think this way is that Eowyns sword breaks upon striking the king,it doesn't evaporate or whatever, like Merry's. from back in "A knife in the dark" Aragorn says
but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king
not all blades break. Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man.
 
Let’s first see what exactly is the definition of immortality, within the lore of Tolkien. We read in his Letters:
'immortality' (in my world only within the limited longevity of the Earth)
Let’s compare the two gifts to Elves and Men:
The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning.

The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world.
In other words, immortality is only confined among the circles of the world. Also, this immortality seems to me that refers to the “hroa” (body) and not the “fea” (spirit). We assume that the fea is immortal even after the end of Time (at least that is what the elvish lore claims).

Let’s get to the Ringwraiths now. Their fea was immortal by definition, without the interference of the rings. The immortality it gave to them, was bodily. In a way, it resembles of the elvish immortality. They did not age, but still they could be slain (Witch-King). They lived in the Unseen, much like Glorfindel being able to live in both the Seen and the Unseen. It seems that the 9 rings gave to the Ringwraiths elvish characteristics.
Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.
But to what extent? And with which cost? Since this “transformation” was beyond the “laws”, it eventually became a burden to the “transformed”. Sauron could not change the nature of Men without side-effects. And besides, he didn’t care, as long as Men were lured.
Men and Elves (the firstborn) respectively, and could not be altered by anyone (even a Power or god)
The “immortality” they got, I think was a deceit. After their death (which is certain to have happened with the destruction of the 9 rings), they did not stay on earth, like the Elves do, they did not get to a similar place like the Halls of Mandos.
I am sure that they followed the fate of Men, whatever is their fate. Remember that no one can change their fate - except the One and in very rare occasions (Luthien, Tuor).
What is this place they went, we can’t of course answer. But I don’t assume that this place is different for the good and the evil. It may be a similar place like the Christian afterlife (waiting to be judged). But there can be no other possible fate for the Ringwraiths.

by Lhunithiliel
And in fact.... weren't they already just "spirits" and not physically shaped humans when they lived as Sauron's servants under the spell of the Ring?

Then, what happened to these spirits?
Spirits. We shouldn’t confuse the meanings we have in our world. They had still hroa and fea, just their hroa was not part of the Seen world. This is different from not having hroa at all, i.e. being just a fea that waits for its fate.


by Arvedui
IMO, this indicates that the Lord of the Nazgul, at least, would be heard again at some later time.
Still, I do not consider this as decisive evidense. Your quotes more than indicate that their immortality is bound to the One Ring.
I disagree with this explanation of the quote you provided. I find it just one of the linguistic tricks that the professor used to provide a epic tone in his writings. As I said before, I don’t think that the immortality of the Ringwraiths was authentic (like the elvish).
 
Yes, I think the "invisible hröa" makes more sense than the absence of hröa that I imagined earlier on this thread, after your exposition, gate7ole. A body inhabiting the "unseen world". This would also explain the differing powers of the ringwraiths and oathbreakers (I take the oathbreakers to be disembodied spirits, truly without hroär; as seen by their lack of agency upon matter).
 
Originally posted by Arvedui
I don't know why, but I have the impression that when Sauron was regaining his strength again, he gathered the Nine Rings to himself. Therefore, the Nazgûl lived even if they didn't actually wear their rings. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (Or support me if I'm right);)

246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by [color=sky blue]Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held)[/color] had primary control of their wills.

Originally posted by Arvedui
As ithrynluin stated, their fëar is indestructible. But if we follow that reasoning a little further down that path, then all Men are immortal, aren't they?

Yes! But they only get to live out a small part of their 'immortality' in Arda! The rest of it they spend in Eru's Timeless Halls, or wherever their souls are destined to go. Unless we dig into the concept of resurrection...

Originally posted by Eriol
There was no substance in a ringwraith body, as I see it. It is not an "invisible" body, it is not a body at all.

If their bodies had no substance, how did they tamper with the physical world then?

Originally posted by Eriol
The "sinews" that Merry pierced were purely spiritual .

How could Merry pierce something spiritual? Or is this the consequence of Merry having used a special weapon, like you said? Where was his sword from? Was it the one he obtained from the Barrow-wight? If so his blade was 'forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse' (TFOTR, Fog on the Barrow-Downs). I don't see why a sword forged by Men would be so special as to have powers to tackle the invisible world. Hmmm...

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
But HOW could this be?!?! WHO gave immortality to nine mortals?!?

Only their existence in the physical world of Arda was prolonged. And Sauron, one of the mightiest of the Maiar, who is also called 'The Necromancer', perfected this craft.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Then was Andreth right to say (I'm too lazy to find the exact quote now ;) ) that by dying Men understand when the body dies?!? Was the body - destruction death to Men?

Yes, the body - or 'the house' - was Men's only link with Arda. Their souls leave the circles of the world, whereas the souls of Elves are bound to Arda.

Originally posted by Glomund
We can assume it was a ancient blade, since she was of the ruling house, but it was Merrys blade that mattered, it pierced the kings "protections", for lack of a better word, and left him open to being destroyed by Eowyn, her blade didn't matter, just her being a female.

Originally posted by Glomund
Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man.

That depends whether 'man' refers to male or the race of Man (there's another thread on this already). But if it refers to 'male' like you say, then Merry's efforts would have been futile, wouldn't they? Unless 'fall at the hand of man' means: 'A man (male) shall not deal me the final blow.'

Regarding the quote from the Sil which refers to the destruction of the 9 and the remainder of the 7...Since all these Rings were in Sauron's possession, what if these rings were destroyed in the downfall of Barad-dur - in great fires and such? After all, these rings weren't indestructible (unlike the One which could only be destroyed in Orodruin), and 4 of the Dwarven rings were consumed in dragon fire IIRC. I think this is a satisfactory explanation. Arvedui, what do you make of this?
;)
 
Merry's sword was "woven with spells against the chief foe of the Dúnedain, the Witch-King of Angmar" (There is a quote to that effect somewhere, perhaps in the very chapter of the Witch-King's death).

As for how they interacted with the physical word, I think this is the effect of the Nine Rings.
 
Arvedui, what do you make of this?
A lot of sense!;)

There is one statement from Glomund, that I did not quite follow:
Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man.
I might read this in the wrong way, but it is nowhere stated that she needed to be a she. The only thing said about this, is from Glorfindel: "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
I don't think Glorfindel meant that you would have to be a man to kill the Witch-king. I have always read this as foresight, not a curse, if you get the difference.:confused:

gate7ole, IMO, made the most convincing connections, and I believe he is right: the Ringwraiths were not immortal, at least not in the true sense. They just had prolonged life, and would go wherever any Men went after life on Arda.
 
Originally posted by Arvedui
gate7ole, IMO, made the most convincing connections, and I believe he is right: the Ringwraiths were not immortal, at least not in the true sense. They just had prolonged life, and would go wherever any Men went after life on Arda.
My opinion too.:rolleyes:

I just wonder (grrrr, Lhun!!! :p) - Did the Ringwraiths, just as well as the Oathbreakers, being in both worlds, know what would happen to their souls, where their souls would go when released by the spells holding them within Arda?
And if so, don't you feel a difference in their attitude on this matters? I mean - the wraiths were as if horrified to really perish while real and final death to the Oathbreakers seems as a long-longed relief...:rolleyes:

I know such subject goes into the "fields" of imagination and deductions more than of reason and firm evidence, but still...
 
Complicated, Lhun. Complicated.
But, no. I do not think the Ringwraiths knew what would happen to their souls. I don't even think they pondered that for one bit. They were living for the moment, doing what their Master told them.
But, if they had been able to understand what was to come later, then I suppose they would have been horrified at the thought of facing the judgement of Ilúvatar:
Eru: "What have you sorry lot got to say for yourselves, then?
Nazgûl: "Well you see, we were tricked by this jeweler that gave us these beautiful rings, and before we knew it, our free will was gone...."

I would not have liked to be in their shoes, at that moment. They received the Rings because of their inborne greed, and lust for power.

Opposed to the Oathbreakers who had been forced to never leave Arda, until they had corrected their mistake from earlier years, and were now granted peace afterwards.
 
******
Eru: "What have you sorry lot got to say for yourselves, then?

Nazgûl: "Well you see, we were tricked by this jeweler that gave us these beautiful rings, and before we knew it, our free will was gone...."

Eru: Didn't I tell you that you Men are my children and I am your true Master? Why did you obey the false masters?

Nazgûl: Ah! But where have YOU been all this time, Master?! You promissed us free will and proclaimed us as your "proteges"...But all we knew was wars and evil and darkness in our lands...! We needed power and we got it!
******

Imagnation, I know, but it also hints! ;)
 
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
******
Eru: "What have you sorry lot got to say for yourselves, then?

Nazgûl: "Well you see, we were tricked by this jeweler that gave us these beautiful rings, and before we knew it, our free will was gone...."

Eru: Didn't I tell you that you Men are my children and I am your true Master? Why did you obey the false masters?

Nazgûl: Ah! But where have YOU been all this time, Master?! You promissed us free will and proclaimed us as your "proteges"...But all we knew was wars and evil and darkness in our lands...! We needed power and we got it!
******
Eru: "But the power you sought, was the power to dominate others, and thus to impose your will on others, and thus limit their free will!"

And thus we can go on and on, touching matters discussed before concerning the Athrabeth, and the Second Fall of Men,and so on, and so on...

Maybe Elgee could re-instate the Court of Middle-earth: Eru vs. Nazgûl?
********

Ooops, what a sorry sidetrack!:eek:
The point here, IMO, is that the Nazgûl exercised their Free Will when lusting for power, they accepted the Rings from Sauron. At that moment, they also turned away from Ilúvatar, thus not having the right to came back afterwards and demand that Ilúvatar should have protected them. Ilúvatar's main concern was Eä, of which Arda was just one part. And he set the Valar to take care of that for him, just like the Webmaster has choosen Moderators to run TTF on behalf of him. (Sorry, couldn't resist that one;) , but the point is there, just on a much smaller scale)
Ilúvatar could not in any practical sense be aware of every one individual on Arda, which is why they had to have Free Will in the first place. I think this is best demonstrated in The Silmarillion when Aulë has created the Dwarves:
And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thou thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'
 

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