Black Uruks of 🌋Mordor

[Bucky]

DISCLAIMER: Before some PC person says it, 'black' is not the point of this discussion in the least, so let's not go there, but 'black' is vital to the point I'm trying to make, OK?
It's sad I have to start with this, but recent history in discussions here indicates I do indeed.


I know that Tolkien has 'Black Uruks of Mordor' in the books.

I believe the Uruk-Hai show up at least 50 years prior to The War Of The ring, maybe hundreds, but I distinctly recall that they invade Ithilien about 50 years prior to The War. Just looked, it's in 2991, 27 years prior.

Now, in the movies, PJ presents the Uruk-Hai as a new breed of 'super orc' that Saruman has just "perfected".......

'Lurtz' & some of the others that chase The Fellowship in TFOR aren't quite as black as the ones in Cirith Ungul in ROTK, but 'Ugluk' (the leader of the group who captures Merry & Pippin in TTT) is as black.

Now, my point is this:

Those big, black orcs in Cirith Ungol in ROTK fighting with the smaller, green orcs, referred to as 'Morgul Rats" certainly look like those other Uruks that have taken Merry & Pippin captive.....
If Saruman just created the Uruk-Hai, how did they get to Mordor so quickly?

Now from a story-telling standpoint, I understand that PJ wanted 2 easily distinguishable sides fighting in the battle within Cirith Ungul, but from the bigger storyline, it makes no sense to have these' super-orcs' that Saruman just created hundreds of miles away somehow pop up on the borders of Mordor.

 

[joxy]

....in the movies, PJ presents the Uruk-Hai as a new breed of 'super orc' that Saruman has just "perfected".

The whole theme, of PJ's super-orcs coming to life fully grown out of a heap of clay, is such a muddle, that it could lead to anything, of any degree of confusion!

 

[aragil]

A big can of worms ...

Well Bucky, you've just stumbled upon my favorite Middle-earth subject.

The Race of 'Uruks' (black orcs of immense strength) was bred earlier in the third age, and first deployed in Ithilien in TA 2486 (check in appendix A, under The Stewards). These are unquestionably different than Saruman's Uruk-hai, who in addition to being strong were also quite large and sun-resistant. So the question becomes, do the terms 'uruks' and 'uruk-hai' mean the same thing? For an answer (or lack of answer) to this, check out the 40+ page thread in the book forum: Uruks vs. Uruk-hai

Saruman definitely mixed the races of Orcs and Men to get his Uruk-hai. Sauron's Uruks were pure Orc. However, the term 'Uruks' could be just an anglicized form of the Black Speech term 'Uruk-hai' in which case both breeds would have the same name, in spite of rather important differences. IMO there is a differential use between the terms, suggesting Uruk-hai refers to Saruman's troops while Uruks applies to Saurons.

The film seems to have hedged a little on this. It clearly shows Saruman doing the breeding, and then calling the offshoot 'My fighting Uruk-hai'. Later these troops are referred to alternately as 'Uruk-hai' (by Aragorn and Gimli) and 'Uruks' (by Eomer and Legolas). This would follow the theory that 'uruks' is simply an anglicized form of 'Uruk-hai', so either term could be applied to Saruman's troops or to Sauron's garrison at Cirith Ungol (or Gothmog, for that matter). The difference in the books is that Saruman's troops are bigger and resistant to sunlight. In the movie we never get to compare the relative sizes of Lurtz with Shagrat at Cirith Ungol, so we don't know if the Mordor Uruks are the same size, nor do we see them running around in the sunlight like Lurtz and co. do in Fellowship.

Regarding degrees of Blackness in the books: Sauron's Uruks were definitely black. The Appendix A entry first and foremost states their color. Also, the chieftain which spears Frodo in Moria is quite black.
Saruman's Uruk-hai are also black- the ones that capture M&P are consistently described as swart, which I guess is just another way of saying 'black-skinned'.
Interestingly, the Orc-men in Bree and the Shire are described as swarthy, indicating (to me at any rate) that as Orc blood is progressively diluted with human blood, you get progressively lighter skin tones.

Hope that helps!

 

[Morgoth]

From the amount of Black Speech that a website taught me, the suffix 'hai' means a race, or variation, much similar to evolution as we have in the 'real' world, with albino mice for example. So I would suggest there is a difference between Uruks and Uruk-hai, but not a major one in the gene pool, just slight variations. Incidentally, how do Uruks reproduce? Are they all created as the Uruk-hai were, or do they *gulp* engage in sexual congress with each other .

 

[joxy]

....Black Speech that a website taught me, the suffix 'hai' means a race, or variation....
....how do Uruks reproduce?

I have always taken "hai" to be a simple plural formation, and thought there was a definition somewhere in the books that confirmed it. Does that Web site base itself directly on the books, and if so, what is its source for the "race, variation" definition?
Well, they certainly don't reproduce the way that PJ is supposed to make them reproduce - by being dug up fully grown from a heap of mud! I still think that guy had somehow got himself tangled in a plastic bag and then fallen in the mud, but I'm in a minority of one on that! Tolkien's orc/man versions are "bred", so that "congress" must be involved, and must result in as near to a normal version of mammalian birth as anyone may care to speculate. I prefer not to speculate on the matter at all!

 

[Morgoth]

Here's the link, joxy
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/orkish.htm

 

[joxy]

Here's the link, joxy

Thank you Morgoth; a nice page.
I like the sense they offer of "folk", which, with the added hyphen, is close to making a simple plural of the word, like fisher-folk, which implies little more than a group of fishermen, and possibly their families.

 

[aragil]

Ugh. Everybody recites that 'folk' business as if they were clones (it is defined by CT in Unfinished Tales, but never by JRRT).

Try 'men' for a variation. As in Uruk-hai = Orc-men.

I can't prove that Uruk-hai means something different than Uruks, but Saruman's troops were demonstrably quite different from Sauron's. They were larger and resistant to sunlight- quite useful traits, if you're in to killing folk at any time of the day.