Calculating the Great 🦅Eagles' Power

[Ithrynluin]

That would put Thorondor at about 72 feet high

The Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
And Morgoth took the body of the Elven-king and broke it, and would cast it to his wolves; but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face.

Thorondor is sounding like a monster! He could eat Godzilla for breakfast and King Kong for lunch.

...and Morgoth for dinner. Stupid bird could've ended it right there and then!

 

[HLGStrider]

nd Morgoth for dinner. Stupid bird could've ended it right there and then!

But we all know for a fact that Silmaril's cause awful belly aches . . . just imagine what an evil vala would do to your digestive tract.

 

[Confusticated]

So is it safe to do a ratio with these calculations for a 180 foot wingspan?
That would put Thorondor at about 72 feet high which was close to my initial appoximations. I'm not sure how you calculated the 20 feet and 4 foot chest...Could you use these numbers to determine the width and weight of Thorondor?

I'll work on it tonight. To get an estimate using wingspan instead of weight I'll just have to work out the problem backwards or something.


I did a very rough estimate of an eagle's volume and divided its weight by that number to get the weight per inch. I figured how many cubic inches would be needed for a 600 pound eagle by diving 600 by the weight per inch. Then I just used the same length per width ratio as the bald eagle to figure the size.


"...then the giant eagle @ .0122877 cubic inches per pound " That Should read "@ .0122877 pounds per cubic inch"

I am going to edit my post to reflect that. Man that would have been a hell of a dense eagle! Why didn't anybody catch that.

 

[Confusticated]

To figure giant eagle size by his weight:

The best single shape I can find that fits closest to a eagle with his wings in is called a prolate spheroid. The formula to figure out the volume of such a shape is 1.33333 x 3.14159 x half its length x half its depth x half its width = volume.

Enter the eagle size you want to use as a basis.

After you have the volume, divide the weight of your eagle by the volume. This will give you density - how much your eagle weighs on average per cubic inch.

Now divide the weight of your hypothetical giant eagle by that weight per inch.

Now you know how many cubic inches in size your giant eagle is. You can use ratio that you used for your real eagle to figure the length, width, and wingspan of your giant eagle.


Here I will estimate Thorondor's weight and height based on his wingspan of 180 feet.

In a real eagle of 34 inches he may be at 7 feet wingspan. So wingspan is roughly 2.5 times the body length in a real eagle - why not a giant one? This is not like weight per length. As Thorin already figured Thorondor would be 72 feet in length. Using my original sample eagle of 34 inches long and 8 inches across, and maybe Thorondor could have a chest of 16 feet across. I tend to think the chest ratio I have been using may be too small (I originally figured it without taking folded up wings into account), but I haven't found better numbers to use yet. The real thing here is the wingspan and weight anyhow. That, along with height will give a good enough indication of size IMO.

So if Thorondor is 180 feet in wingspan and 72 tall - what is his weight?

Well, my base eagle says .0122877 for density so I'll multiply that by Thorondor's volume of 115811.67156, and we have a 1,423 pound bird. Variations in density will drastically change his weight, so will tweaking the chest width. There is margin for error in his weight. For instance lets say the volume is off a little and the bird is actually .017297 pounds per inch instead of .0122877, then Thorondor would be 2003 pounds. And if Thorondor can lift as much per his weight as a bald eagle he could have carried half the shire to Mordor!

The smaller eagles of the Third Age could have varied. I guess its up to each reader to imagine them whatever size he likes. I played with some numbers the other day for fun, but unlike Thorondor its all wild guesses.

Now someone else can figure the eye cone thing. I don't know about Gwaihir and crew, but Manwe's big time First Age eagles are said to see to the depths of the sea and basically through anything other than the immediate shadow surrounding Morgoth's lair. So however many the cones, they were plenty...

 

[Gothmog]

Nice work Nom. No Morgoth was concerned about him

 

[Thorin]

Good job Nom, though you lost me a few times with some of the figures.

So, speculatively Thorondor's dimensions would be:

Wingspan: 180 feet
Width: 16 feet
Height: 72 feet
Weight: appx: 1400 lbs

Oh my gosh...Does anybody want to draw a smaller scaled diagram of what even a 7 foot elf would look like beside this monstrosity?

Now here is the other question from the info that Gothmog brought up (I think)

How big exactly was Morgoth for this beast of a bird to mar his face? The small tip of Thor's claw would probably have cut Morgoth in half even if he were twice the size of a normal elf! For Morgoth to have been logically attacked by Thorondor in any sort of battle without Thorondor absolutely dwarfing Morgoth, he would have to stand at least over 40 feet tall.

We know that Morgoth slew Fingolfin but surely an elf wouldn't have gone up against such a huge being, even if he was a 10 foot tall elf.

Did Tolkien create a huge discrepancy by making Thorondor have a 180 foot wingspan?

 

[Confusticated]

If I get extra time I may install Paintsho Pro again and make some visuals.


In my opinion the fact that Fingolfin wounded Morgoth in the foot a few times and nowhere else supports the idea that Morgoth in fact was HUGE. Even though Morgoth might have been good with his giant shield. I bet he was nearly 50 feet tall, and I can see a 50 foot Morgoth holding his own against a 72 foot eagle long enough to run for cover... hehe.

But more importantly, Thorondor was in direct connection and service to Manwe, who, given the way the Valar handled the rebellion of the Noldor and Morgoth, may not have wanted Thorondor to interefere more than necessary. The Valar could have made war against Morgoth at that time but chose to keep their distance. It may be (though it seems unlikely) that Thorondor didn't even ask Manwe's permission to peck at Morgoth, and during the attack got a message saying to lay off him. Peck and claw him just enough to stop him from squashing Fingolfin, and take his body to his eldest son.

And Fingolfin only went up against Morgoth when he was mad with despair and rage. Remember when Morgoth attacked Valinor all the Noldor of Formenos fled at his approach except for Finwe, and the Noldor aren't generally sissies.

 

[HLGStrider]

Morgoth was like the end game boss.

 

[Thorin]

In my opinion the fact that Fingolfin wounded Morgoth in the foot a few times and nowhere else supports the idea that Morgoth in fact was HUGE. Even though Morgoth might have been good with his giant shield. I bet he was nearly 50 feet tall, and I can see a 50 foot Morgoth holding his own against a 72 foot eagle long enough to run for cover... hehe..

Yes, that's right...I forgot about him wounding Morgoth only in the foot.
Sheesh, Fingolfin sure had balls didn't he?

So....anybody interested in calculating Morgoth's height, width and weight?
(* heads for cover)

 

[Thorin]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread for interest's sake. Nom sure did a great job here and I am wondering that seeing as we got the size of Thorondor out of the way, if we have any takers on figuring out the physical dimensions of Morgoth!

What about the size of Middle Earth? The distance relative to our own countries of the trip from the Shire to Mordor?

Any ideas or takers?

 

[lorkar]

well i think i can speculate about morgoth dimension, but i dont have quotes that support it though.

nvm ill still do it, but no in lbs, neither in feets, because i am south american and we use international units system and not american zzzzz..i mean i will use meters and kilograms.

the size of morgoth pictured in the animated silmarillion book, for me was like 10 times an elf (of the high stature of fingolfin), so if fingolfin was like 2 meters or 1.90, maybe , morgoth was 20 meters tall!!!

morgoth could also change his size at will, so in his stance in valinor he was the same size as a common elf.

also get in mind the size of the balrog in the movie...he was huge, still morgoth was bigger than him, a lot more bigger.

he could break the earth with his hammer, and lava come from it, omg was huge.

IT IS also said in the silmarillion that the first time melkor entered arda as a material being, he entered like a mountain in height, yes, he was even bigger than before, so bigger that he could destroy the two towers of old, and almarien just by himself, also he destroyed mountains at will, and raised them also, as he did with utumno and angband, but after his imprisionment and further ungoliant attack, he lost A LOT of power, and he couldnt mold the earth anymore.

 

[Confusticated]

Sheesh, Fingolfin sure had balls didn't he?

Hehe - but who wants to calculate the size of em.

:*D