Could Hobbits use magic?

Mannish magic

Originally posted by Nóm
I don't have access to the Letters right now, and have read very little of them, but because of the quote Maerbenn has provided I wonder how Tolkien explained some of the apparant use of 'magic' by men. The blades, and Isildur's curse upon those oathbreakers for example.

I wonder if he did explain these things, or if he was unsure about them. Maerbenn, do you know if there is anything like this in Letters?

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There is actually a footnote attached to the text I quoted where Tolkien questions his own statement's veracity: 'But the Numenoreans used "spells" in making swords?'
Also of note is that this 'letter' is actually a portion of a draft for letter #154 where this portion of the letter was excised from the sent version.

I think that if it were completely absent from Man's 'nature', then several of his own plot devices would fail; this could be the reason why it was excised.

But I think we can infer that 'normal' (Middle and Dark according to the Númenórean classification?) Men didn't know magic, but other 'special' branches of the Human Race, like the Dúnedain and Drúedain (but not the Periain) used magic.

I'm still not sure about the Edain of the First Age. An interesting note is that they had so called wise-women; Andreth seems to have been a seer.

Got it. Noone feels like paying attention to my questions. That's always nice. Well, this Maerbenn person wrote something about certain human types being able to use magic. I happen to know that hobbitses have magic already. Read that The Hobbit book. They're magically quiet. I love that part where they're messing around in the woods near those three superly cool trolls. It says something about how the Dwarves and the hobbit could have walked achingly close to some human and not get heard.

Hobbits don't need to use magic also it wouldn't be socially acceptable for them to.

Who says? It seems to me to be that these people only feel like talking about magical type things that come naturally to crazy fantastical type things. The nasssty hobbitses can't choose to lose certain things that are natural for them. Or are you just talking about magical type things that aren't natural for them? I wouldn't think that they'd especially mind seeing a magic show, but I don't think you were talking about the fake stuff.

Something that might be related to this:

Footnote to letter #131:

They [Hobbits] are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.

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That abnormal thing sounds like a creepy power to me. Anyways, Beorn was a type of human. He had magic. The nasssty hobbitses could have figured it out, too, as far as I know. Also, that The Hobbit book still said the thing about hobbitses being especially quiet. Sounds like a creepy power to me. Or should we just disregard that because of the craziness that's not in the story?

I don't know whether or not Hobbits could use magic, and frankly I think this has been a topic too long debated, but in any case, if they couldn't I wish they could. And if they could, well, then, I'm happy. I WANT them to, isn't that enough?! (Sniff)

There was actually no "magic" in Tolkien.
The Elves "magic" was called magic only because it was unexplainable by men, really what it was was that Elves had a greater influence over nature and their surroundings and a more intimate relationship with those things than men and hobbits did. Also they were closer to the Iluvatar...

As for the Istari, Maiar, and Valar....their magic wasn't magic anymore than we'd say Jesus had magic, they had a sort of divine power and a control of elements, space, time, etc. but not really what we'd call magic.

Men and Hobbits did not have this control, though the Edain did have a closer relationship to nature and the ways and powers of these other groups, they didn't have control over it.

So the answer is no.

Did you not read my posts? Ack! What about Beorn and the nasssty hobbit creepy ability to be especially and magically quiet and things? Forget the piddly little fact that there's no such thing as magic. Anything that might ever be confused for magic counts. Like the two things that I mentioned. Also, they can still do magic tricks.

Beorn wasn't a man, he was a Beorning, part man part something else.
He was a different kind of creature altogether.
As was Tom Bombadil.

And Hobbits being quiet when they walked is no more a magical ability than certain native american tribes being proficient at the same thing.

They've just gotten used to needing to go unnoticed and they're familiar with their land. It's not "magic" not even by the Tolkien's elf sort of definition.

Huh. I thought that I just posted in this place. Where'd the thing go? oh well. I'll write as much of it as I can remember. Why would you say that the nasssty hobbitses didn't have magic? Did you not read whatever posts at least I made in here? oh well. sorry about that. Beorn was some time of human as far as I know, and he had magic. The nasssty hobbitses had some messed up and creepy and silent type magic, if you feel like paying attention to The Hobbit. oh well. Forget about what that Tolkien guy says about magic. It seems to me to be that we're talking about anything that might be confused with magic. Like the two things that I mentioned.

The Hobbits had what men might have confused as magic, and they acted in such a way (moving silently and quickly and staying out of sight) that they would SUGGEST a sort of magical quality, but they didn't actually have magic.
And while Beorn took the shape of a human, he was not a true human, and therefore doesn't count in the statement that men didn't have magic.

Hm. There must have been something wrong with my evil computer. It wouldn't let me see that I had written pretty much the same thing before. oh well. Anyways, I thought that both Beorn and the nasssty hobbitses were just some messed up type of human. I had a crazy theory about the origin of hobbitses one time that linked them to Beornings. Wouldn't know where to find it, though. oh well. I thought that that The Hobbit book said that the nasssty hobbitses definitely had some creepy type of quiet magic stuff. That they and the Dwarves could have walked achingly close to some average human and not get noticed. Sounds like some creepy magic to me. The book never said that the human was blind.

Super-normal abilities are not necessarily magic.
They're different creatures. If you walk in the forests in Thailand a Tiger can pass within feet of you and you won't hear a thing until they pounce on you.
It's not magic. It's stealth. They learn it through instinct, their environment, etc.

No, really? Maybe I just made that part of the book up in my head. I don't know. I don't have a copy of the thing anywhere with me at the moment, but I remember the thing talking about some achingly evil and magical type ability.

The Numenorians putting spells on their swords was a form of Goetia (necromancy in the case of the Enemy, or "artistic magic" in the case of the elves), not magia (inherent power). Goetia is an acquired skill, while inherent magic is an inborn power. So I suppose hobbits could learn goetia, but not magia.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!

of course the hobbitses can't do magic!
actually it is said in The Hobbit, "they do not possess any magic as you and I would understand it, unless the skill of disappearing quietly into the woods is considered magic". There.
And if they used elven enchanted blades then the magic would be IN THE BLADES, not in the hobbits.



Starflower

Thank you for finding the quote! I was looking for it!


Here's another quote from the Letter that's used to preface The Sil where Tolkien talks about "magic":

-and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents - or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bull-dozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.

I have not used 'magic' consistentently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the towrd both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. There 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And it's object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrranous re-forming of Creation.

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That quote has always helped me immensely in understanding what Tolkien intended for "magic" in his worlds.

Edit- If there are any misspellings or typos in the above quote please let me know, I copied it over from my copy of The Sil and I don't have a bookstand so I had the book in my lap and I typed it without looking at the screen...I re-read it to see if there were any typos...but I may have missed some.

Aha! ---> unless the skill of disappearing quietly into the woods is considered magic

So it is magic. At least to some people. *sniff* Also, are the spelling errors that huge of a deal? Is towrd a word?

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
There was actually no "magic" in Tolkien.
The Elves "magic" was called magic only because it was unexplainable by men, really what it was was that Elves had a greater influence over nature and their surroundings and a more intimate relationship with those things than men and hobbits did. Also they were closer to the Iluvatar...

As for the Istari, Maiar, and Valar....their magic wasn't magic anymore than we'd say Jesus had magic, they had a sort of divine power and a control of elements, space, time, etc. but not really what we'd call magic.

Men and Hobbits did not have this control, though the Edain did have a closer relationship to nature and the ways and powers of these other groups, they didn't have control over it.

So the answer is no.

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Isn't "control of the elements, space, time, etc." considered by most people to be magic?

Ok. First let's define the word "magic." The dictionary says: "Magic is the general term for any of the supposed arts of producing marvelous effects by supernatural or occult power and is figuratively applied to any extraordinary, seemingly inexplicable power." It also defines magic as: "1) the use of charms, spells, and rituals in seeking or pretending to cause or control events, or govern certain natural or supernatural forces; or 2) any mysterious, seemingly inexplicable, or extraordinary power or quality."

I'm inclined to agree with Wonko the Sane, on some things. It really all depends on how you define magic. YayGollum, you seem to be going with the second definition, and Wonko the Sane, you seem to be saying that there is no such thing as magic, that everything is either a natural ability or a divine power. I think YayGollum's definition is a little too broad, but then again, there are some abilities that simply aren't normal for any creature, and thus should be labeled magic.

I think that any control of nature is a form of magic in itself, simply because most creatures don't have the ability to control something separate from themselves. But I think a human, with practice, could learn to be stealthy like the hobbits, and so what the hobbits possess is more probably just a natural ability for creeping around unseen. Humans couldn't learn to influence their surroundings as elves do, unless you are talking about the Edain, but I think they had elven blood in them. Elves have an ability to influence their surroundings, but hobbits don't. Hobbits have a greater control over their own stealth, which is something I think anyone could learn with time. So, I think Elves have magic, and humans and hobbits don't. What the Istari, Maiar, and Valar have is divine power, which is a kind of magic in its own way, but should be put into a group all by itself.

It all comes down to what they have influence over. Hobbits can influence their own bodies, and thus are able to walk noiselessly. Elves can influence something separate from themselves, which isn't normal for any other creature.

I've yakked enough. Basically I'm saying that Elves have magic and hobbits don't, for reasons listed above.