Did Ringwraiths Botch Murder in Bree?

[Mellon]

I guess you can tell that I thought this scene went differently...

 

[Greenwood]

It was loyal to the book in the sense that it could have happened that way. The book does not say who was responsible. Strider does say of the Black Riders: "they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people". But this was not an open attack. This was a clandestine break-in at night in the dark. It was not even discovered until the next morning. It might have been by the Black Riders or it might have been by confederates that the Black Riders sent. The book leaves it an open question.

 

[Mellon]

Of course you're right, and since it is not said specifically who was responsible it is up to informed critics like us to put forth our best guess!

I just don't think this was Ringwraith style to slash bolsters and trash a room. For one thing, they seemed to rely more on their sense of smell, and this ought to have told them that there was no living thing in that room.

 

[Greenwood]

Mellon

Since the question you asked in the poll was whether the moive was loyal to the book and since the book does not answer the question, I do not see how you can state that the movie was wrong. It might be wrong, or it might be right. The book gives us no way to answer the question. As for the wraiths "knowing" there was no living thing in the room, how would they know that until they actually entered the room? As for slashing everything, one of the main weapons is fear. The news of what happened in that room and the raid on the stables certainly created quite a stir in Bree the next morning when it was discovered. It certainly made it impossible for Strider and the hobbits to slip away unobtrusively the next day. I am not arguing that the Black Riders definitely did the attack themselves. There is no way to know. The book leaves it an open question.

 

[Mormegil]

Book. What book?
LOL

I think that scene in the film was influenced more by Bakshi than the book. Perhaps it is because Bakshi's interpretation of the scene was accepted by people. PJ just thought he would copy it as it was an accepted idea.
It also adds to the evilness of the Nazgul.

 

[Lindir]

I was always sure it was the Ring-wraiths and it never occured to me that the text was inconclusive. Strange. But since I've always thought it was the wraiths, to me the movie version is as I had pictured it.

 

[Tar-Palantir]

Where-oh-where did that thread go? This was discussed in a thread a month or two ago and someone (sorry, I can't remember who) made a compelling argument that (in the book) it was NOT the Nazgul, but Men working for them who attacked the room. Anyone else remember that discussion and the passage cited?

 

[Thorin]

I think that as creepy and menacing as it would be to have had the wraiths be the ones who sacked the room, I don't believe it was them:

1) I'm sure that the tavern and other night-life was still around and I doubt that the wraiths could find their way, not only into Bree itself, but into the inn without someone taking notice. Just their mere presence was enough to scare everyone out of their wits. Maybe one or two very secretly, but not the amount that PJ showed.

2) The only evidence that shows that the riders were even near Bree was the one who was bending over Merry...

I'm pretty sure that there is more evidence concerning the presence of the riders in Bree and Aragorn''s comments, but I will need to refer back to the book.

I will not fault PJ for making such a scene seeing as it was fairly ambiguous, but I think that it was Bill Ferny and his men. Otherwise, why would there be even mention of them leaving the tavern after Frodo's mishap if they were not up to no good?

 

[aragil]

Bill Ferny and his Southerner were 'chatting' with a couple Black Riders when Merry ran accrossed them. I'm sure they were telling the black riders that Baggins was in the Prancing Pony. The question then becomes whether the Black Riders would tell Bill & Buddy to go back and slash, or whether the Black Riders would do it themselves. As the One Ring itself was the prize, I see no reason that it couldn't have been the Nazgul hacking and slashing.

 

[Mellon]

Tar-Palantir...
I, too, would be eager to know who argued that hired help did the bed-slashing. (Throw me a bone!)

Greenwood...
If we had any certainty about "right" and "wrong", there would be very little discussion in this forum! But I didn't create the poll to ask for a right or wrong answer; it was merely to see what the prevailing opinion was.


I'm not out to criticize the dramatic scene from the movie. It's just that I always thought it was hired help. IMHO:

1. The Nazgul, with their smelling sense, would not have stabbed an empty bed.

2. These Nazgul are former kings, would they really stoop to prying open windows and tossing beds about?

3. The horses were also all quietly released during the night... this sounds more like work of henchmen. I also would not expect horses to quietly tolerate being near Nazgul.

4. Aragon's opinion was that the Nazgul would not attack a house with many people unless they were desparate; instead he suggested that they had influence over some in Bree. "They will drive these wretches to some evil work", he said

Any takers?

 

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Where-oh-where did that thread go? This was discussed in a thread a month or two ago and someone (sorry, I can't remember who) made a compelling argument that (in the book) it was NOT the Nazgul, but Men working for them who attacked the room. Anyone else remember that discussion and the passage cited?

Maybe you meant Kuduk's post here?

Although I always thought it was the nazgul themselves, I think Thorin, Mellon and Kuduk make it at least likely, (although not proven beyond a doubt) that it's not the Nazgul themselves who do the attacking at the inn. So I'll take it, Mellon.

 

[Greenwood]

1. The Nazgul, with their smelling sense, would not have stabbed an empty bed.

But the Nazgul, or their henchmen, might stab and slash the bedding in frustration on finding the rooms empty.

2. These Nazgul are former kings, would they really stoop to prying open windows and tossing beds about?

But the Nazgul are just Sauron's flunkies now. I do not see either the Nazgul, or their henchmen, being reluctant to do whatever it takes to fulfill Sauron's commands.

3. The horses were also all quietly released during the night... this sounds more like work of henchmen. I also would not expect horses to quietly tolerate being near Nazgul.

You have a point here that the Nazgul would probably frighten the horses, but the Nazgul could have their henchmen steal the horses while they entered the rooms. It could be a joint operation.

4. Aragon's opinion was that the Nazgul would not attack a house with many people unless they were desparate; instead he suggested that they had influence over some in Bree. "They will drive these wretches to some evil work", he said

As I pointed out above, Aragorn said: "they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people". This was not an open attack, but a stealthy attack in the dark of night. But, yes, the Nazgul could have had henchmen do it.


All of the above is not to say that anyone's opinion on this matter is wrong; nor anyone else's right. Just that the issue is unresolvable with the information given in the book. Reasonable arguments can be advanced either way.

 

[Mellon]

Greenwood:

Your points are well made, and in the spirit of ongoing speculation perhaps we can drag this thread out a bit further... (!)

I still think it's out of character for Nazgul to throw beds and slash bolsters out of frustration. Note how controlled and contained they were at Weathertop. I would have expected a frustrated sort of Nazgul personality to have trashed their camp, sustained a seige, slash up Merry and Pippin, etc...

 

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Bill the Pony


Maybe you meant Kuduk's post here?

Although I always thought it was the nazgul themselves, I think Thorin, Mellon and Kuduk make it at least likely, (although not proven beyond a doubt) that it's not the Nazgul themselves who do the attacking at the inn. So I'll take it, Mellon.

Thanks Bill! That was it.

 

[DGoeij]

never really gave it a lot of thought.

I always assumed it was the Nazgul. But I see it could have been 'locals' as well.

 

[Harad]

I thought that Kuduk post was pretty convincing. I also agree with Mormegil that Bakshi plowed the ground turing the attackers into the Nazgul. No doubt for both movies, its a good cinematic choice.

If it were the Nazgul in the book (I dont think it is), it just adds to their portrayal as incompetent boobs, something that is present in other instances during the Keystone Kops chase to Rivendell.

 

[Eonwe]

Can we at least agree that the FotR Movie shows a wonderful Barliman's soiling his pants scene while the Ringwraiths enter the room behind the door?

 

[daisy]

I also felt a bit of a Keystone Cop vibe in terms of the Nazgul in the film - they seemed very stupid and unable to formulate a plane. The other thing that bugged me was the timeframe of the Nazgul going through the Shire - at one point we seem them booting down the road and scaring that man and his dog - quite a while later they run into the Hobbits- this seemed like a too large gap for the mighty Nazgul - also, I never got scared of them - until I guess the creepy scene where Frodo is stabbed and you see the actual faces of the old kings...I like the idea that it is a bunch of other jerks trying to find and kill the hobbits - but what then, the Nazgul would sneak in and take the ring or something?

 

[Mellon]

This is kinda fun... thinking about Nazgul as Keystone Cops.

Could this be a built in shortcoming in the book? Tolkien seemed to want to create these supernatural characters, armed with fear and power unseen, whose distant presence could bring a sense of dread...
Very, very spooky...

But then, how do a pack of hobbits and a Ranger with a broken sword run the gauntlet to Rivendell?(I did think it was an improvement in the movie to keep the shards in Rivendell... what experienced scout & outdoorsman would burden himself with a broken hilt?)

There has to be some tremendous luck for the party, and some bumbling by the Nazgul. There was so much open ground between Bree and Rivendell that there had to be gross errors by Nazgul to miss the hobbits, especially after the hobbits were discovered at Weathertop.

 

[Ged]

There is an interesting contrast in the book between the apparently incompetent or extremely unlucky Nazgul at the beginning of the book, and the terrifying Lord of the Nazgul at the gates of Minas Tirith near the end. In the latter scene The L of N seems genuinely powerful, and at least willing to even try to take on Gandalf.

In my view this parallels other similar mood changes through the book. The 1st chapter begins almost in the same vein as "The Hobbit", e.g. Gandalf as the firework expert with the sticky out eyebrows. After "Shadow of the Past" and then increasingly the book turns not only darker but more self-consistent. This reflects the timescale over which JRRT actually did the writing.

Many of the apparent inconsistencies in the book can be traced to these early chapters. For example, if Bilbo used the ring fairly regularly (which I think we can agree that he did) why didn't Sauron become aware of him?

Re the scene at Bree, I always read the book that it WAS the Nazgul who attacked the Inn. The Lord of the Nazgul at the end of the book who faced the armies of Gondor would have had no problem with a lighted Inn and a few bumbling drinkers (he didn't know Aragorn was there). He wouldn't have allowed Ferny or any other person to get hold of the ring.