Did Ringwraiths Botch Murder in Bree?

[Mellon]

I agree, there is a transition as LOTR progresses. Other critics have noted this also, suggesting that the loss of Gandalf in Moria was necessary in order to resurrect him with the necessary powers, respect, and mystery to take on his advanced role in the later books. Gandalf in Minas Tirith is a far cry more powerful than the rather self-indulgent wizard stuck in a tree in U]The Hobbit[/U].

I just find it hard to see a flesh sniffing Nazgul mistakenly stabbing a lifeless bed. Furthermore, oughtright murder of the hobbits as attempted in the movie would not be too bright for ones dedicated to finding the Ring, what if Frodo had hidden it before going to bed? And what good would it be to slash beds out of frustration... the horses were released (blocking escape), and if there was an aura of safety in the Prancing Pony, the Nazgul might have had a better chance of being successful the next night there. As it was, the party felt unsafe sticking around.

Also, the burglars in Bree came in by the window, but in Crickhollow the Nazgul broke down the front door as Fatty Bolger was running away. No sneaking in through the windows there.

 

[Harad]

'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?' 'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'

Just to reproduce the fabled Kukuk quote. Why would they have this discussion if later the Nazgul did enter the rooms and attack? Its always possible that Aragorn was wrong, but why point that out?

and

As soon as Strider had roused them all, he led the way to their bedrooms. When they saw them they were glad that they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping; the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung upon the floor; the brown mat was torn to pieces.

You'll have a hard time convincing me that this description is "evil" enuf for the Nazgul their own selves.

I agree with Ged about the shifting "competence" of the Nazgul. Remember also that the Witch-King in the earlier days had been powerful enuf to wipe out the Kingdom of Arnor, full of blokes just like Aragorn (or close anyway). Maybe the Witch-King himself wasnt at the various encounters until Weathertop (was he there?) but that means there was a BIG drop off in competence when you went down to the lesser Nazgul. The Witch-King was certainly at the Ford of Bruinen but by then it was too late.

 

[aragil]

It was the Witch-King at Weathertop showing the first glimmer of Nazgul-competence: He was the one that stabbed Frodo. Khamul the Easterling was the second in command, and he was the one botching things in the Shire. He was also the most afraid of water, so perhaps that was him on the other side of the Buckleberry Ferry.
But here's another reason to think that it was the Nazgul: what would have happened if they had stayed in their room? Imagine Strider in the room with the Hobbits when Ferny's wide-end slips through the window. Worst-case scenario, the Hobbits have to 'borrow' Bill the Pony from a recently deceased Ferny. For that matter, why are we assuming that the ponies were scared off before the attack on the room? It seems to make more sense to run off the ponies after the attack on the hobbits' room was foiled.
So anyway, I think the more asthetically pleasing reading has the Nazgul assault the room, that way Strider wouldn't have been able to help them if they had stayed in the room. IMO, even Merry, Pippin, and Sam would have been enough with their Barrow-Blades to thwart Ferny and the Southerner. Ferny was certainly cowed by the Hobbits alone during the Scouring of the Shire. Perhaps Aragorn said one thing, then thought another. Doubtlessly (Shirley?) he would not have kept them in a different room if he thought the only danger came from Ferny and the Southerner.
Also, Frodo wakes up in the night 'as if some sound or presence had disturbed him.' Do Ferny and the Southerner have such a strong presence? And then there's Butterbur's statement: 'Guests unable to sleep in their beds, and good bolsters ruined and all!' Sounds like Nazgul to me!

 

[Harad]

They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too.

Classic case of misdirection by the character (and the author)?

(Shirley?) he would not have kept them in a different room if he thought the only danger came from Ferny and the Southerner.

What "General" would chose to take the full brunt of any attack of unknown size, instead of having the blows fall harmlessly?

 

[daisy]

I still say it would have taken the Nazgul a nanosecond to realize the Hobbits were not in the room and then they would have just left - they wouldn't have bothered to ransack an empty room - this would have been so beneath them and such a human response. From the first step into that room they would have known nobody with the one ring was there - I say some evil guys were lined up by Ferny, went in to apprehend the Hobbits and take them to a certain location where the Nazgul would try to get the ring - when they saw the room was empty they were incensed and maybe looking for things to steal....

Not a Nazgul heist it seems.

 

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by aragil
IMO, even Merry, Pippin, and Sam would have been enough with their Barrow-Blades to thwart Ferny and the Southerner. Ferny was certainly cowed by the Hobbits alone during the Scouring of the Shire.

But by the time of the scouring of the shire, the hobbits had grown, both in wisdom and in swordcraft. IIRC at the inn in Bree, none of the hobbits had ever had to use their swords in real combat. I'm not so sure if the four of them would have been able to beat a number of men almost twice their size.

Perhaps Aragorn said one thing, then thought another. Doubtlessly (Shirley?) he would not have kept them in a different room if he thought the only danger came from Ferny and the Southerner.

Agree with Harad here , why take the risk if you can avoid it?

Also, Frodo wakes up in the night 'as if some sound or presence had disturbed him.' Do Ferny and the Southerner have such a strong presence?

Actually, now that I think of it, this seems to imply it was not the Nazgul. Otherwise it would have stated something like: Frodo woke up with a feeling of dread on him. Just like Fatty could feel the presence of the Nazgul all day long, even though they were still outside his garden. Shouldn't the hobbits have felt fear if the nazgul were in the next room? This sounds like Bill Ferny bumped his head on the window sill and yelled ouch!


edit: I believe the scene in the movie can not have been true to the book, because there were three of them at Crickhollow at the time of the attack, and there were only 5 total in the neighbourhood, (I guess), so at most there could have been two of them at the Inn?

 

[Mellon]

... amazing how BTP can understand JRRT enough to rewrite a passage for a hypothetical, but his is a nicely made point.

I also agree that a theoretical Nazgul temper tantrum in the inn doesn't jive with their ex-kinglyness, even if they are now high-class henchmen for Sauron.

And what about Bill Ferny's "squint eyed companion", that was not to be found the day after the raid? "it appeared that he was nobody's friend, and nobody could recollect when he had joined their party."

A suspect?

 

[Chymaera]

Sauron sent the Nazguls to the Shire to get Baggins and get the Ring. Sauron also keep the nine rings in Mordor. He didn't want a lot of independent thinking going on while they searched.

 

[Mellon]

What makes you say that, Chymaera? I always assumed the Nine wore the Nine. But you bring up a good point... what was to keep a Nazgul from taking the One for himself???

 

[Harad]

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3226

discusses whether the (no)RingWraith had Rings--they didnt.

This is funny to me since:

1. Where is their Power, if their Rings of Power are elsewhere?
2. What's to stop Sauron from giving away the Rings again, to get another 9?
3. Why are they such wimps that they can't break away from Sauron once the Ring "controllers" are gone?

Supposedly they are such "slaves" at this point they would never contend for the Ring but bring it back to Dad, wagging their shrouds. Maybe that is why they are so competency-challenged.

 

[Mellon]

Thanks Harad, I found that thread a few minutes after my last posting. BTW, quite a humorous rendition of the situation on your part, LOL! Will follow this conversation there, but seems there is little to grapple on factually.

 

[Roseberry]

daisy-

The Ringwraiths' sense of smell couldn't have been all THAT keen, or the hobbits would have been caught immediately when they were hiding under the road overhang & the wraith was right over their heads, sniffing. It always seemed to me in the book that they were very uncomfortable in the physical world, and their senses were not tuned in as sharply as ours are, even smell. The room at Bree was a special hobbit-sized room, so it had been only ever used for hobbits; it probably REEKED of hobbit from past use.

Also, someone wondered why Bilbo wore the ring frequently & was never caught by Sauron; in the book, Sauron has never actually seen the holder of The Ring - that's played up in the movie. For example, on Amon Hen, Frodo feels the eye looking for him, sort of sweeping back & forth like a lighthouse beam, but he manages to get the ring off before the eye sees him. That's one thing that's bothered me about the movie; it brings up some obvious questions if Sauron can so easily detect where the Ring is & who has it. In the book, that doesn't happen.

 

[Harad]

Roseberry:
What scene(s) are you referring to in the movie? The book at Amon Hen is an unfortunate example, where the movie handles it better. In the book Frodo barely escapes the Big Eye on Amon Hen. Then 2 minutes and 100 yards later he puts the Ring on again, something which asks the questions "What WAS he thinking?" and "Did Sauron take the rest of the day off?" In the movie he doesnt put the Ring on again.

 

[Roseberry]

Harad-
Referring to the thread regarding whether the Ringwraiths would have destroyed the hobbit room at Bree as they did in the movie. Several people have mentioned the Nazguls' sense of smell as a reason why they would have *known* the hobbits weren't actually sleeping in the room. The scene I was talking about was Frodo's first encounter with one of the wraiths on the road, when they were hiding with the mushrooms. My point was simply that their sense of smell can't have been tremendous, even though it was the one they relied on the most.

In the scene with Amon Hen, my sense from the book was that it was a special place, where the kings or leaders went to "see" what was going on in the world. It was for that reason that Sauron came the closest to actually seeing Frodo - he was sitting on the seat of "seeing" at the time. That was one of my points; it wasn't as cut and dried in the book that you popped on the ring and *POOF!* you were in Sauron's lap. It was much more of a searching & not finding, until the end.

 

[Harad]

Originally posted by Roseberry
I was talking about was Frodo's first encounter with one of the wraiths on the road, when they were hiding with the mushrooms. My point was simply that their sense of smell can't have been tremendous, even though it was the one they relied on the most.

I am sorry to say that I can't explain that scene on the road, no how. The Nazgul are servants of the OneRing. Here is one Nazgul literally inches from the OneRing, yet despite smell, intuition, or just plain magical attraction, the Nazgul proceeds to gallop off in the wrong direction. Wha?

In the scene with Amon Hen, my sense from the book was that it was a special place, where the kings or leaders went to "see" what was going on in the world. It was for that reason that Sauron came the closest to actually seeing Frodo - he was sitting on the seat of "seeing" at the time. That was one of my points; it wasn't as cut and dried in the book that you popped on the ring and *POOF!* you were in Sauron's lap. It was much more of a searching & not finding, until the end.

There are 2 problems with this. One is psychological: how much does Frodo know of this Amon Hen story? He is a reasonably intelligent but not academically learn-ed Hobbit. He barely escapes the worst Evil on ME by removing the Ring, and then promptly puts the Ring on again. Where is the mathematical calculation that tells him that it wasn't safe, and then moments later it is safe.

Second Aragorn then runs to Amon Hen and sees...nothing. I don't see any particular magical qualities there.

 

[Mellon]

Harad...

My take on the Amon Hen scene was that there was something unique about the structure of the place that made Frodo know that it was special. Like some tourist attractions in the US, once you step into that certain spot you understand that you are taking in a very unique view, or can hear uniquely well, etc. Upon stepping off of the spot the sense of vision, and vulnerability, disappeared.

The scene of the sniffing Ringwraith near the mushrooms is tough. I suspect the sense of smell was strong to be able to pick up the scent of a path, like a hound. But we don't know about wind conditions, etc. Then the wraith seemed to get disturbed by the Elves. Reminds me of ghosts... maybe this was the desired effect.

 

[Harad]

Where did Frodo get the refresher course on Gondor geography? If you had never been there before, and you just escaped with your life because you were wearing the Ring, would you put the Ring back on again? Where is the manual that tells him "in this spot you will be filleted by Sauron, but if you move 100 yards to the right, you are safe."

 

[Mellon]

I take your point. Before this thread I had not realized this paradoxical angle. I think it is certainly an act worthy of questioning, but consider:

Frodo had not felt the Eye upon putting on the ring to avoid Boromir.
The ring had perhaps just saved his life. The ancient chair where Frodo stepped up to on the summit was clearly a special place, and a place where he felt exposed. Also, there he seemed to enter a dreamlike state. This was an experience clearly different than any prior experience, and something he apparently assumed was associated with having been in that particular location.

My image of the summit of Amon Hen is like to that of precipitous summit in climbing... when you reach such an exposed place you know that it is special; you don't need any map to tell you this. For Frodo, the huge flagstones, the battlement, the carven pillars, and the many stairs leading to the one seat would have been other clues.

I too, would have appreciated an extra sentence when Frodo slipped on the ring again... perhaps he could have put it on with some trepidation, and confirmed his sense that he was not so exposed once off the summit chair. Maybe JRRT was intimating trepidation by describing Frodo as <slowly> pulling out the ring again.

We see repeated examples of Hobbit resiliency throughout LOTR. Events that would have us mere men quivering and traumatized for days are quickly brushed off by Hobbits. I'd chalk this one up to being another such event.

 

[Roseberry]

He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Numenor.

And Frodo saw everything that was going on everywhere -- Orthanc, Misty Mountains, Mirkwood, Isengard, Harad(!), Minas Tirith, etc.

And suddenly he felt the Eye . . . he knew that it had become aware of his gaze.

Because he was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing. Even if you weren't familiar with this place, it would occur to you that there was something special about suddenly seeing everything everywhere. After the crisis had passed & the Eye had not seen him, he had no reason to think that after he had gone away from Amon Hen that there would be a problem. After all, in the book, he has used the ring before & not experienced encounters with the Eye. It all points to the virtues inherent in the Seat of Seeing. Just like picking up one of the Palantirs and singing out, "Yoo-hoo!"

 

[Harad]

Sorry. But it was the Ring, not the seat of Amon Hen that exposed Frodo. How do we know this? We read what Aragorn--the heir of Isildur, moments later, experienced:

Aragorn hesitated. He desired to go to the high seat himself, hoping to see there something that would guide him in his perplexities; but time was pressing. Suddenly he leaped forward, and ran to the summit, across the great flag-stones, and up the steps. Then sitting in the high seat he looked out. But the sun seemed darkened, and the world dim and remote. He turned from the North back again to North, and saw nothing save the distant hills, unless it were that far away he could see again a great bird like an eagle high in the air, descending slowly in wide circles down towards the earth.

The Hill was an observation post, in the normal sense. Perhaps it had some ancient connection with important events but clearly did not confer magical abilities to Aragorn.