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Did Ulmo know that the Ring was in the river?

Erestor Arcamen

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This was brought up on Reddit and I wanted to see what TTF's thoughts were. Did Ulmo know that the Ruling Ring was in the river and if so, did he even possibly nudge Deagol in the right direction? It was said Ulmo never forsook the elves and humans and that his spirit ran through all the veins of the world. From the Valaquenta:

Ulmo is the Lord of Waters. He is alone. He dwells nowhere long, but moves as he will in all the deep waters about the Earth or under the Earth. He is next in might to Manwë, and before Valinor was made he was closest to him in friendship; but thereafter he went seldom to the councils of the Valar, unless great matters were in debate. For he kept all Arda in thought, and he has no need of any resting-place. Moreover he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green. The trumpets of Manwë are loud, but Ulmo.s voice is deep as the deeps of the ocean which he only has seen.

Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar. At times he win come unseen to the shores of Middle-earth, or pass far inland up firths of the sea, and there make music upon his great horns, the Ulumúri, that are wrought of white shell; and those to whom that music comes hear it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea never leaves them again. But mostly Ulmo speaks to those who dwell in Middle-earth with voices that are heard only as the music of water. For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwë.

As I posted this, another thought came to me. What stopped Ulmo from retrieving the silmaril that was chucked into the sea?
 
I suppose it depends a little on when that passage is taken to be from -- First, Second, or Third Age? Archetypally, the First Age is the age of myth, when the "gods" are actively and directly engaged with the earth and Man, and can appear as Ulmo did to Tuor. The Third Age is the age of romance, when, to use Frye's words, "the gods have retreated to the sky" -- or in this case, Valinor, and are not directly involved.

Or if so, in only exceptional circumstances, and even then, in a more indirect and "distanced" way, in story terms. Ulmo and his waters are admittedly something of a special case, but even here, I think of it as more of a "residual influence" than direct intervention, an example being the Nazguls' fear of water -- which Tolkien admitted was "difficult to sustain".

As to the Silmaril, no idea.
 
I would think that the cataclysmic changes at the destruction of Númenor, making the world round, and removing Aman and the Lonely Isles "from the circles of the world" might have had a serious effect on the Valar being able to intervene directly in Middle-earth - which was all of the made-round world now. JRRT wrote nothing on this explicitly. I do vaguely remember that at least in the First Age, Ulmo did not have an abode in Valinor, in contrast to the other Valar, but lived in the "outer ocean", whatever that meant. And he was the only Vala to ever show himself, on the western shore of M-e - and Tuor was the only human to even see a Vala. It does seem a little inconsistent of the Vala, not clearing out all of their "kindred", which would have to include at least All Maiar - but there you have Sauron and at least the Balrog of Moria still active in the Third Age!
 
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Correct, he dwelled in Ekkaia, the outer ocean but that makes sense that with the "rounding" of the world he would not have been aware of the ring being there. Or maybe he was still aware to bring news to the Valar but obviously couldn't do anything about it since they were removed from Arda.

🌁
 
I think of Tolkien's World as always round, and its later "rounding" by Eru as a Mannish Myth.

Anyway, Ulmo basically did "save" a Silmaril from the sea, but nonetheless the Valar set it beyond the grasp of the Children of Middle-earth; and we know too that the Vanyar (somehow) knew that "those Jewels could not be found or brought together again unless the world be broken and unmade."

🐟
 
There's also the question of if Ulmo even wanted to do anything about it at that point. His great quest was to get Earendil to Valinor, using a Silmaril to do it, which he succeeded at. After that, there was one jewel in earth, air and water, which seemed like a nice cosmic balance.
Not just Ulmo, all of the Valar. One could say their one really big tsk was ridding Arda of Melkor / Morgoth, though they needed some extraordinary prodding - which Ulmo was centrally responsible for bringing about.
And as after the awakening of the Elves in the First Age of the Two Trees, at the end of the First Age (now become that of the moon and sun) they drew many Elves back to Valinor, or at least Tol Eressëa, which was also part of the Undying Lands. Not only that, they also drew the Elf-friend among men west, giving them Númenor. The rest of Middle-earth, or actually M-e proper, seems to have been of no interest to them as far as we can tell from any writing - even though they had left Sauron and at least one Balrog, never mind quite a few dragons, back there. "Help from the west" for M-e meant Númenor now.

As JRRT wrote in the "Akallabêth" part in "The Silmarillion", when Ar-Pharazôn had set foot on the shores of Aman:
"Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down the government of Arda."
I sometimes wonder to what degree, and in what form the ever took up that government again.
Five disguised Maiar, basically with both hands and one foot tied behind their backs, about 4,500 years after they neglected to take "dear old" Sauron back to Valinor at the end of the First Age, takes the guys two millennia to get the job done, barely - some government.
 
The Ainur were not permitted to dominate the Children of Ilúvatar. That’s why the Istari had the restrictions they did, and his decision to do otherwise was the precipitant cause of Saruman’s fall to evil.

Ulmo was in opposition to the rest of the Valar in his counsels: he aided Turgon and Finrod, and after Nirnaeth Arnoediad, sent Tuor to Gondolin. Then he helped Elwing and Eärendil, bringing the embassy of Elves and Men to Valinor. In this, he opposed his fellow Valar but pursued the will of Eru.

In the Downfall of Númenor, the fiendish plan of Sauron was not only to turn the hearts of the Númenóreans against the Valar, but to pit the Númenóreans against the Valar and Maiar. While no force of Dúnedain could overcome a Vala, Dúnedain could and did overcome Maiar, both Balrogs (in Gondolin, in the early tales) and in the defeat of Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance. But because the Valar and Maiar were specifically prohibited from harming Elves or Men, Manwë was unable to react to the invasion of Valinor: once Ar-Pharazôn and his vanguard set foot upon the shores of Eldamar, Manwë’s only recourse was an appeal to Eru. Eru’s response was drastic and cataclysmic: Númenor was destroyed, Arda was changed, and Valinor was removed from the Circles of the World, making it unaccessible to Men.

It is certainly possible that Ulmo was aware that the Ruling Ring had fallen into Anduin! That coupled with the rearising of Sauron in the Third Age may well have been the impetus for the Valar sending the Istari to Middle-earth with their aforementioned restrictions. But as the evil of Morgoth spread through Middle-earth, even the High Elves of the First Age had difficulty hearing the voice of Ulmo in the waters: Ulmo himself mentions this in his appearance to Tuor.

As for Maiar and Umaiar left behind: After the War of Wrath, Sauron first presented himself to Eönwë, but faced with return to Valinor and long penance, he hid himself and fled into the East. The Balrog hid sometime during the War, and did not appear again for nearly two ages of Middle-earth, when the unfortunate Dwarves disturbed his hiding place. The nature of Tom Bombadil is long debated, but I would venture to say that, intentional enigmas aside, he and Goldberry fit well into descriptions of Maiar; and that would well explain Gandalf’s long visit he proposed as he left Frodo and his companions on their return to the Shire.
 
The Ainur were not permitted to dominate the Children of Ilúvatar. ...
The Ainur included Morgoth and every bleeping Maia who pledges his allegiance to him in Middle-earth, whatever form they took.
Morgoth and Sauron at least very much dominated any Eruhini the could get under their sway.
Morgoth personally killed Fingolfin, nothing that specific is written about Sauron.
And not just dominate, pervert (Sauron giving the Nine Rings to as many mortal Men, giving them a "life"-span of over 4,000 years - definitely not "as designed" by Eru), have tortured, wage war on with their perverted subject, committing mass murder.
Eru's response: zilch.
Logical rigorous consistency does not seem to be one of his strong points, quite the contrary ...
 
Oh, yes! Morgoth Bauglir and the Umaiar all violated Eru’s prohibition! That’s what makes them Bad Guys. And Sauron was responsible for the deaths of Finrod and his Elven companions, as well as Gorlim the Unhappy, Celebrimbor, and who knows how many more Elves and Men.

Eru’s response was not “not zilch”. His response, however, was always through intermediaries: Manwë, Varda, Tulkas, the Istari. Eru sent Gandalf back as Gandalf the White. According to Andreth, it was Eru Himself who warned the fathers of Men not to trust Morgoth, then allowed the curse to fall upon them when they did. Eru was active in Middle-earth, but not in ways that Men or even Elves could easily see. It was the Ainulindalë come to life.
 
The Ainur included Morgoth and every bleeping Maia who pledges his allegiance to him in Middle-earth, whatever form they took.
Morgoth and Sauron at least very much dominated any Eruhini the could get under their sway.
Morgoth personally killed Fingolfin, nothing that specific is written about Sauron.
And not just dominate, pervert (Sauron giving the Nine Rings to as many mortal Men, giving them a "life"-span of over 4,000 years - definitely not "as designed" by Eru), have tortured, wage war on with their perverted subject, committing mass murder.
Eru's response: zilch.
Logical rigorous consistency does not seem to be one of his strong points, quite the contrary ...
Bro, Eru caused Gollum to take his fateful plunge that evening in Orodruin, like personally caused it.


Tolkien even confirmed as much.

CL
 
Bro, Eru caused Gollum to take his fateful plunge that evening in Orodruin, like personally caused it.
Tolkien even confirmed as much.
CL
Except for the destruction of Númenor, it the books themselves, it is impossible to notice any intervention by Eru.
Part of the design, at least in LoTR, as JRRT himself also stated:
"That is why I have not put in, , or have cut out [!], practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
Many of us have read the background literature, be it by Christopher, be it by Humphrey Carpenter, Tom Shippey, Verlyn Flieger et.al., Lexicons by Robert Foster, J.E.A. Tyler, and others. Suppose someone had only read LoTR. Would all that JRRT wrote in that Letter to Father John Murray SJ, printed in "Letters" be as clear as JRRT states to Murray? I have my serious doubts.
I could well imagine even adherents to various parts of Christianity, including Catholics, missing it on that sole information, LoTR. And never mind adherents of the other two Abrahamic religions. Those originating in India, China, elsewhere? Forget it. The non-religious? Forget it. What people of the most diverse backgrounds are responding to in JRRT's writings are human universals, which transcend any one creed. JRRT may have seen them as fundamentally Catholic, and very likely rightly so. But not exclusively, two concepts that seem to get confused all too often.
 
Except for the destruction of Númenor, it the books themselves, it is impossible to notice any intervention by Eru.
Part of the design, at least in LoTR, as JRRT himself also stated:
"That is why I have not put in, , or have cut out [!], practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
Many of us have read the background literature, be it by Christopher, be it by Humphrey Carpenter, Tom Shippey, Verlyn Flieger et.al., Lexicons by Robert Foster, J.E.A. Tyler, and others. Suppose someone had only read LoTR. Would all that JRRT wrote in that Letter to Father John Murray SJ, printed in "Letters" be as clear as JRRT states to Murray? I have my serious doubts.
I could well imagine even adherents to various parts of Christianity, including Catholics, missing it on that sole information, LoTR. And never mind adherents of the other two Abrahamic religions. Those originating in India, China, elsewhere? Forget it. The non-religious? Forget it. What people of the most diverse backgrounds are responding to in JRRT's writings are human universals, which transcend any one creed. JRRT may have seen them as fundamentally Catholic, and very likely rightly so. But not exclusively, two concepts that seem to get confused all too often.
That being so, He STILL confirmed Eru caused Gollum's dip. -__-



CL

That being so, He STILL confirmed Eru caused Gollum's dip. -__-



CL
From Letter #192:
Yes, as we can see on Letter #192, Eru certainly took over after Frodo was done with the assigned task.

Tolkien mentions that Frodo did take the Ring to a certain point (where no other being could) and then another power took over to decide the fate of the Ring.

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said).
See Vol. I p. 65. 2 A third (the only other) commentator on the point some months ago reviled Frodo as a scoundrel (who should have been hung and not honoured), and me too. It seems sad and strange that, in this evil time when daily people of good will are tortured, 'brainwashed', and broken, anyone could be so fiercely simpleminded and self righteous.

(Emphasis mine)

CL
 
Except for the destruction of Númenor, it the books themselves, it is impossible to notice any intervention by Eru.
Part of the design, at least in LoTR, as JRRT himself also stated:
"That is why I have not put in, , or have cut out [!], practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
Many of us have read the background literature, be it by Christopher, be it by Humphrey Carpenter, Tom Shippey, Verlyn Flieger et.al., Lexicons by Robert Foster, J.E.A. Tyler, and others. Suppose someone had only read LoTR. Would all that JRRT wrote in that Letter to Father John Murray SJ, printed in "Letters" be as clear as JRRT states to Murray? I have my serious doubts.
I could well imagine even adherents to various parts of Christianity, including Catholics, missing it on that sole information, LoTR. And never mind adherents of the other two Abrahamic religions. Those originating in India, China, elsewhere? Forget it. The non-religious? Forget it. What people of the most diverse backgrounds are responding to in JRRT's writings are human universals, which transcend any one creed. JRRT may have seen them as fundamentally Catholic, and very likely rightly so. But not exclusively, two concepts that seem to get confused all too often.
I'm someone who only reads TH, LoTR, and TS. I've never felt that there was any explicit references to Eru/God acting in a really direct way; there is a morality running right throughout the works, but I've never felt it was distinctly religious in any way.
 
I'm someone who only reads TH, LoTR, and TS. I've never felt that there was any explicit references to Eru/God acting in a really direct way; there is a morality running right throughout the works, but I've never felt it was distinctly religious in any way.
Until he did when he caused Gollum's fall.


CL
 
Frodo:
I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

Gandalf:
So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work, Frodo, than the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the ring. In which case you also were meant to have it, and that is an encouraging thought.


CL
 
But in LoTR itself, there is no such confirmation; do we then say that the much-wider audience of the book as opposed to the smaller number of people who have read The Letters are actually worse off for not "knowing" this?
Surely if Tolkien expressly wanted this to be part of the book, he would have found a way to present it? As he didn't, don't we need to take a more distanced view of a comment written in a letter?
I suppose this is all part of the "what is Canon" debate, which I doubt will ever be resolved any time soon!
 

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