Does Bombadil secretly hate hobbits?

[TrackerOrc]

If he escorts them how does that teach them self reliance?
And danger is everywhere... so he escorts them to the borders of his land....or even to Bree.
Who "helicopters" them when they leave Bree? (He doesn't know about Strider being there)

Who says they need to be taught anything? Where in the book is this a thing?
Helping them along in the journey doesn't have to involve much more than the basics, surely?

 

[Deimos]

Who says they need to be taught anything? Where in the book is this a thing?
Helping them along in the journey doesn't have to involve much more than the basics, surely?

Gandalf to the Hobbits in ROTK, coincidently enough, on the borders of Tom's land:
“I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.”

​

 

[Ent]

I still don't see what the hobbits learn here though?

Just so you know, I have read your response starting with this one.

I think I will not respond, but leave it to your considered pondering for a time. I truly believe if you give some thought to "how and what people learn through experiences", and review the whole scenario of Bombadil carefully from beginning to end, you'll see a good deal the hobbits will have 'learned' (though most likely, entirely unconsciously), from the events. (Think Lobelia Sackville-Baggins along these lines, and what she learned from her experiences, even well later in her life.)

I might even recommend, as silly as it may sound, thinking of your own experiences - particularly when you were 'young' but even so now as we are old - and consider how and what we 'learn' from any given experience. (Often, we never even see their purpose or what we've gained, until we're using our hindsight from quite a "distance" into the future.)

@Deimos points above are well worth considering... and I would add to them the quick note Tolkien makes in Chapter XII - Inside Information in The Hobbit:
"Already he was a very different hobbit from the one that had run out without a pocket-hankerchief..." &c.

Who had "trained" him? Who/what had he "learned" from? Only his experiences. Yet he was fundamentally changed. Thus it is with everyone, everywhere, all the time. (Absent some malady preventing them from growth.)

 

[Deimos]

@Deimos points above are well worth considering... and I would add to them the quick note Tolkien makes in Chapter XII - Inside Information in The Hobbit:
"Already he was a very different hobbit from the one that had run out without a pocket-hankerchief..." &c.

Who had "trained" him? Who/what had he "learned" from? Only his experiences. Yet he was fundamentally changed. Thus it is with everyone, everywhere, all the time. (Absent some malady preventing them from growth.)

Dang....and "bravo!" too. 👍🙂
I specifically wanted to use that quote from the Hobbit but couldn't find it.

 

[Ent]

I specifically wanted to use that quote from the Hobbit but couldn't find it.

sorry about that. but glad I was able to recover it into the scenario.
a careful look will show us many places where a maturity and/or growth, are spoken to - in a few different ways..!
almost worth a thread of its own, and exploring how Tolkien pictures such gains throughout his texts.

 

[TrackerOrc]

Gandalf to the Hobbits in ROTK, coincidently enough, on the borders of Tom's land:
“I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.”

​

Yes, the hobbits are vastly changed by their experiences throughout the book. But what does this have to do with the specific events in the Old Forest and Barrow Downs? What do they learn there?
They already know the dangers of both places, at least from rumours, and what is it they gain from their mishaps? That there will always be someone there to save them, which is what Bombadil (perhaps haphazardly) does? Nothing they themselves do has any effect on their rescue, it's all from the external party of Bombadil, so I'm at a loss as to what has been taught here.

 

[TrackerOrc]

Just so you know, I have read your response starting with this one.

I think I will not respond, but leave it to your considered pondering for a time. I truly believe if you give some thought to "how and what people learn through experiences", and review the whole scenario of Bombadil carefully from beginning to end, you'll see a good deal the hobbits will have 'learned' (though most likely, entirely unconsciously), from the events. (Think Lobelia Sackville-Baggins along these lines, and what she learned from her experiences, even well later in her life.)

I might even recommend, as silly as it may sound, thinking of your own experiences - particularly when you were 'young' but even so now as we are old - and consider how and what we 'learn' from any given experience. (Often, we never even see their purpose or what we've gained, until we're using our hindsight from quite a "distance" into the future.)

@Deimos points above are well worth considering... and I would add to them the quick note Tolkien makes in Chapter XII - Inside Information in The Hobbit:
"Already he was a very different hobbit from the one that had run out without a pocket-hankerchief..." &c.

Who had "trained" him? Who/what had he "learned" from? Only his experiences. Yet he was fundamentally changed. Thus it is with everyone, everywhere, all the time. (Absent some malady preventing them from growth.)

Yes, people change (perhaps even learn) from experience, which is precisely my point - what can they have learnt from their time with Bombadil? They know about the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs, so no lesson needed there, you would think. Is there any growth in self-reliance, say, in their escapes from Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight? I can't see it, as it's Bombadil alone who does all the heavy lifting, so to speak.

 

[TrackerOrc]

a careful look will show us many places where a maturity and/or growth, are spoken to - in a few different ways..!

Absolutely agree, but equally absolutely disagree that this takes place anywhere near Bombadil.

'Equally absolutely disagree'...I don't know if this is quite good English or something horrible to try and read!

 

[Deimos]

Yes, people change (perhaps even learn) from experience, which is precisely my point - what can they have learnt from their time with Bombadil? They know about the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs, so no lesson needed there, you would think. Is there any growth in self-reliance, say, in their escapes from Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight? I can't see it, as it's Bombadil alone who does all the heavy lifting, so to speak.

Sometimes, quite often in fact (in my experience, at least) a person does not recognize a situation in which they have grown until after some time has passed.
That is, they only see that the experience has been an instance of personal growth for them, well after it has happened, seen in retrospect.
This can also apply to any observers. I.e. a parent sees that his kid has suddenly emotionally matured, yet cannot pinpoint exactly what brought the maturation about. I'm not talking about normal maturing related to chronological years. Rather, when their kid suddenly displays (in some particular circumstance) a wisdom beyond his years. And the parent is quite surprised...gratified, but still surprised, as in "when did that [growth] happen?!"
So I can't tell you how their experiences with Tom helped them to grow; I only know that it did because of the way they behaved later.
IN other words not all growth is obvious; some is very, very subtle.

Also you are looking at growth (it seems to me) as occurring in individual instances, but only as separate and often unrelated happenings.
But growth is an accumulation of experiences, the result being greater than the sum of the individual parts (each "part" being a discrete instance of growth)

 

[TrackerOrc]

Sometimes, quite often in fact (in my experience, at least) a person does not recognize a situation in which they have grown until after some time has passed.
That is, they only see that the experience has been an instance of personal growth for them, well after it has happened, seen in retrospect.
This can also apply to any observers. I.e. a parent sees that his kid has suddenly emotionally matured, yet cannot pinpoint exactly what brought the maturation about. I'm not talking about normal maturing related to chronological years. Rather, when their kid suddenly displays (in some particular circumstance) a wisdom beyond his years. And the parent is quite surprised...gratified, but still surprised, as in "when did that [growth] happen?!"
So I can't tell you how their experiences with Tom helped them to grow; I only know that it did because of the way they behaved later.
IN other words not all growth is obvious; some is very, very subtle.

I fully agree that the hobbits mature and grow, but I'll have to disagree with you concerning Bombadil, as I just can't see anything in the events of the Bombadil chapters that could be seen as lessons learnt (however subtly). I mean, in the most generalised sense of the word, they did experience things which may have changed them in the long run, but to me this would be stretching the point too far.

Although this could be my bewilderment over Bombadil riding roughshod over my ability to actually see things in a more favourable light!

 

[Deimos]

I fully agree that the hobbits mature and grow, but I'll have to disagree with you concerning Bombadil, as I just can't see anything in the events of the Bombadil chapters that could be seen as lessons learnt (however subtly). I mean, in the most generalised sense of the word, they did experience things which may have changed them in the long run, but to me this would be stretching the point too far.

Although this could be my bewilderment over Bombadil riding roughshod over my ability to actually see things in a more favourable light!

Well, I can't explain it any more clearly, so I'll have to leave you to your own devices to comprehend (or not) the Hobbits' experience of growth while in Tom's land.

 

[Ent]

'Equally absolutely disagree'...I don't know if this is quite good English or something horrible to try and read!

Whatever else the above was,, it was fun...!! Considering whether one can 'absolutely equally disagree' to different levels (i.e. other than 'equally') gave me a few moments of pondering, which I love..!

And it's OK we disagree. It's called "life." I see it personally as part of the early stages of their growth in coming to understand they NEED to trust and rely on others, and not just themselves at times - that they do not have the ability to face everything they're going to encounter in life on their own - that they need to sharpen their senses and start making better decisions - that there is a larger plan beyond what they can see (and this is an area you might have difficulty with, as it relates to Providence - Bombadil is one of the great examples of Providence Tolkien incorporated into his work) - and so on.

They also have opportunity to learn not only do faithful people (Bombadil in this case) help them with the KNOWN perils (like the wights) but people will help "see them through to the end" as Bombadil then did, taking them the rest of the way to the edge of his own 'sphere of influence'.

He helped them first with the 'known' peril... then he stood by them for the potential unknown perils. (He clearly realized if they couldn't yet handle what they had been warned about, they certainly wouldn't be able to handle what they did not know..)

All these lessons start at Old Man Willow, and the great Providence at work having Bombadil 'just happen' to be where he needed to be when he needed to be.

While many see it as a failure on Bombadil's part not to just accompany them from the beginning, I see it as wisdom on his part, again fulfilling the precise role Eru had set out for him in His plan.

So there are a few 'specifics' into the situation.

But at the end of the day, we don't need to agree. It's fine to see things differently, or to "enjoy the same things in different ways" (or not enjoy them) as "Bert and Ernie" do.

 

[Ent]

just can't see anything in the events of the Bombadil chapters that could be seen as lessons learnt (however subtly).

I'll add just one more thought, then I'll shut up. (Audience - no applause, pleae..!!)

Sometimes it isn't 'just' about actual growth, but providing the opportunity for growth as well.

Bombadil behaves just like a father to his children in many respects. He already knows the Hobbits aren't up to the challenge of the "mighty singer" Old Man Willow. However - every father wants to see his children succeed, and provides them opportunities to do so.

In the case if the wights, the hobbits are forewarned - 'educated' if you will... by their 'father'. (Every father teaches his children.) But more than that, father Bombadil stands behind them, and provides for their safety - in this case, a means to 'get in touch with him' so he can come to their aid if needed. (Today, fathers make sure their kids have their cell phone number.)

So Bombadil forewarns, okys provides a safeguard, then sends his 'kids' out into the world in hope.

Only a father who is an 'enabler' would 'do everything for them,' rather than prepare them, provide for their safety, them set them out on opportunities for success - (growth). The "enabler" doing everything for someone, is doing them NO favor whatsoever.

Bombadil saves them, forewarns them, forearms them, measures their mettle in their next challenge, saves them again, then escorts them safely out of his sphere of influence through territory even he does not know what they may encounter, then having done all he can to prepare them for the things that lie ahead of them within the scope of his involvement, he sends them on their journey. As with any 'parent' he can only hope they fare well. But he knows Eru is ultimately in control.

He's quite well aware of what they will be facing, as he's well aware of the existence of the ring, and of evil.

Quite opposed to this thread's title, 'does Bombadil secretly hate hobbits', I personally feel everything he does demonstrates the direct opposite. Not only in his consideration of the hobbits, but in his consideration of the 'free peoples' and 'good / freedom' from the darkness altogether.

OK I really will shut up now.

 

[Ent]

bewilderment over Bombadil

Coming back to this for a second, I really want to thank you for the discourse and exchange on Bombadil.
It has helped me in several ways, and I think is now going to result in a bit of an essay on my particular perspective of him.

it will also result in a revision to our Wiki entry on Bombadil - not to change it and make it 'align with my view' as that's not the intent.
But it's another Wiki entry needing some real help in just the basic use of our language in a more coherent, consistent and readable way.

So... you've managed to 'put it on my plate' of things to do here. Might as well leverage the event for its full value.

Thank you again.

 

[Deimos]

Coming back to this for a second, I really want to thank you for the discourse and exchange on Bombadil.
It has helped me in several ways, and I think is now going to result in a bit of an essay on my particular perspective of him.

it will also result in a revision to our Wiki entry on Bombadil - not to change it and make it 'align with my view' as that's not the intent.
But it's another Wiki entry needing some real help in just the basic use of our language in a more coherent, consistent and readable way.

So... you've managed to 'put it on my plate' of things to do here. Might as well leverage the event for its full value.

Thank you again.

But I think he (TrackerOrc) is still bewildered....
In fact I'd venture to say he has an incurable affliction of the "Bombadil Bewilders" .

 

[Ent]

But I think he (TrackerOrc) is still bewildered....

That's OK. Bewilderment is a part of life, as are joy, sorrow, amusement, consternation, etc.

Is he bewildered at the being of Bombadil himself? or is he bewildered at how we can see what we can see in Bombadil? Or is he bewildered overall, as he's struggling with adjustment? We cannot know.

What we DO know, is he is having an 'experience'. And much like the hobbits, it's an experience providing him an opportunity to learn.
Either to learn more strongly why he sees what he sees... or to learn of alternative perspectives.
Whether and what he may learn we also cannot know.
We only know there is an event - and it contains opportunity.
In the future, hindsight will uncover what the event has delivered as its result.

Each of us who has participated in the event has the same set of circumstances before us. And we have this guarantee... the event will deliver differently to each of us - exactly what it delivers being dependent.

But the event itself has been exactly the same.

 

[TrackerOrc]

Whatever else the above was,, it was fun...!! Considering whether one can 'absolutely equally disagree' to different levels (i.e. other than 'equally') gave me a few moments of pondering, which I love..!

And it's OK we disagree. It's called "life." I see it personally as part of the early stages of their growth in coming to understand they NEED to trust and rely on others, and not just themselves at times - that they do not have the ability to face everything they're going to encounter in life on their own - that they need to sharpen their senses and start making better decisions - that there is a larger plan beyond what they can see (and this is an area you might have difficulty with, as it relates to Providence - Bombadil is one of the great examples of Providence Tolkien incorporated into his work) - and so on.

They also have opportunity to learn not only do faithful people (Bombadil in this case) help them with the KNOWN perils (like the wights) but people will help "see them through to the end" as Bombadil then did, taking them the rest of the way to the edge of his own 'sphere of influence'.

He helped them first with the 'known' peril... then he stood by them for the potential unknown perils. (He clearly realized if they couldn't yet handle what they had been warned about, they certainly wouldn't be able to handle what they did not know..)

All these lessons start at Old Man Willow, and the great Providence at work having Bombadil 'just happen' to be where he needed to be when he needed to be.

While many see it as a failure on Bombadil's part not to just accompany them from the beginning, I see it as wisdom on his part, again fulfilling the precise role Eru had set out for him in His plan.

So there are a few 'specifics' into the situation.

But at the end of the day, we don't need to agree. It's fine to see things differently, or to "enjoy the same things in different ways" (or not enjoy them) as "Bert and Ernie" do.

Yes, first and foremost it's been entertaining and instructive in equal measure, which is the best things to be!

I'm never going to understand this character in the way that a lot of other people seem to be able to do, which is actually quite good as it leads to intersting discussions all round.

And I haven't given up on persuading everyone that Bombadil was just an off-day for Tolkien!

 

[TrackerOrc]

I'll add just one more thought, then I'll shut up. (Audience - no applause, pleae..!!)

Sometimes it isn't 'just' about actual growth, but providing the opportunity for growth as well.

Bombadil behaves just like a father to his children in many respects. He already knows the Hobbits aren't up to the challenge of the "mighty singer" Old Man Willow. However - every father wants to see his children succeed, and provides them opportunities to do so.

In the case if the wights, the hobbits are forewarned - 'educated' if you will... by their 'father'. (Every father teaches his children.) But more than that, father Bombadil stands behind them, and provides for their safety - in this case, a means to 'get in touch with him' so he can come to their aid if needed. (Today, fathers make sure their kids have their cell phone number.)

So Bombadil forewarns, okys provides a safeguard, then sends his 'kids' out into the world in hope.

Only a father who is an 'enabler' would 'do everything for them,' rather than prepare them, provide for their safety, them set them out on opportunities for success - (growth). The "enabler" doing everything for someone, is doing them NO favor whatsoever.

Bombadil saves them, forewarns them, forearms them, measures their mettle in their next challenge, saves them again, then escorts them safely out of his sphere of influence through territory even he does not know what they may encounter, then having done all he can to prepare them for the things that lie ahead of them within the scope of his involvement, he sends them on their journey. As with any 'parent' he can only hope they fare well. But he knows Eru is ultimately in control.

He's quite well aware of what they will be facing, as he's well aware of the existence of the ring, and of evil.

Quite opposed to this thread's title, 'does Bombadil secretly hate hobbits', I personally feel everything he does demonstrates the direct opposite. Not only in his consideration of the hobbits, but in his consideration of the 'free peoples' and 'good / freedom' from the darkness altogether.

OK I really will shut up now.

I don't think you would be an enabler if you made sure your kids didn't go near a known place of danger, magic rhyme/phone or no!

I'll shut up as well...

 

[TrackerOrc]

Coming back to this for a second, I really want to thank you for the discourse and exchange on Bombadil.
It has helped me in several ways, and I think is now going to result in a bit of an essay on my particular perspective of him.

it will also result in a revision to our Wiki entry on Bombadil - not to change it and make it 'align with my view' as that's not the intent.
But it's another Wiki entry needing some real help in just the basic use of our language in a more coherent, consistent and readable way.

So... you've managed to 'put it on my plate' of things to do here. Might as well leverage the event for its full value.

Thank you again.

Well I think it's been a really good example of how much these forums can do in terms of expanding our thoughts and opinions.

I've even managed to read the Bombadil chapters again for the first time in too long a time! (Though I'll probably concentrate on the Barrow Downs in the future - I've found I still have my limits concerning Mr B!)

 

[TrackerOrc]

But I think he (TrackerOrc) is still bewildered....
In fact I'd venture to say he has an incurable affliction of the "Bombadil Bewilders" .

Oh yes, proudly 'Bombadil Bewildered'.

From my first reading all those years ago, to my last not so long ago, I've never understood him. Don't think I ever will, to be honest, but that's ok, there's plenty of other characters to get my head around.