Elven Debate: Are 🧝elves devine(superior) or humanlike ( equal) ?

[Elfhelm25]

A bit of a side- theme to the Arwen debate, really, but this can go off in a rather broad direction. What do you think ? Do you see elves as better than humans, perhaps devine even, simply because they are elves or do you see them as being judged upon their deeds and actions , therefore not being superior than humans unless through their actions ? Are they inherently similar to humans, or quite different ? All answers welcome, evidence would be great too ! I am just curious to see how people see elves because it would play nicely into the Arwen debate. Thanks !

 

[Niniel]

It rather depends on your definition of superior. Do you mean superior in a moral sense, or in a physical sense? Tolkien himself repeats several times that the Elves represent particular aspects of Men:

Letter 153: Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring. (...) Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires.

Letter 144: I should say that they represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and long life, and nobility.

Letter 181: The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.

So the Elves are actually representations of certain aspects of Men: creativity, beauty, nobility, artisticity, but in a higher and purer level than Men usually have these faculties. This conception of Elves would automatically make them superior in all the aspects I just mentioned; in the physical sense that is. Whether they are better in a moral sense is a different question- one that is hard to answer because it depends on free will vs. predeterminination: does the Music of the Ainur forebode everything that will happen to the Elves? If so, it is impossible to judge them for anything they do, because they basically had no choice. I myself am inclined to agree with this idea; what the Elves did was the result of Melkor's evil and lies, and it could not really have happened in any other way. Men do have 'a power to shape their own lives,' so in that aspect they are different from Elves.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Cool topic, Elfhelm.

I don't think Elves are 'better' than Men per se, they were simply made of 'tougher substance', able to endure more suffering and grief.

They share many similarities with Men, apparently they are biologically very 'close', and their destinies are intertwined. I appreciate the 'artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects' that can be observed in Elves, and I am fond of their love for nature, whereas Men tend to destroy it in their search for power and are less in sync with Mother Earth.

But Elves are not above making mistakes, as is best seen in the whole Flight of the Noldor issue. They can committ horrible deeds as well (e.g. the Kinslaying), though Men are much more susceptible to evil and prone to fall.

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #153
Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event

Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them. ....

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #181
Elves and Men are just different aspects of the Humane, and represent the problem of Death as seen by a finite but willing and self-conscious person. In this mythological world the Elves and Men are in their incarnate forms kindred, but in the relation of their 'spirits' to the world in time represent different 'experiments', each of which has its own natural trend, and weakness. The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understand it for its own sake and as 'other' – sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves – not as a material for use or as a power-platform. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence. They are therefore 'immortal'. Not 'eternally', but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts. When 'killed', by the injury or destruction of their incarnate form, they do not escape from time, but remain in the world, either discarnate, or being re-born. This becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world in which there is malice and destruction (I have left out the mythological form which Malice or the Fall of the Angels takes in this fable). Mere change as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God. But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from an), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure. But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness.

EDIT: I see Niniel beat me to it.

 

[Lantarion]

Woah fast quotes people! Outstanding!

Based on those quotes and Letters I'd say that Elves are in a sense 'better' than Men, if the matter is looked at from a fairly simplistic perspective. They seem to posses an innate skill in the crafting of almost anything, from languages to beautiful items. And I think that Tolkien attempted (and succeeded) to portray the Elven 'race' as more romanticized, in order for the history and reminiscence of ancient times to ring better in the Lord of the Rings. I believe in the Foreword to the LotR, Christopher Tolkien says that his father wanted to create a feeling of extreme age and a very ancient past to Middle-earth through all the references to things of the First Age (e.g. Tirion, Númenor, the Valar, etc.), to make Middle-earth seem more realistic and to give it a certain 'air'. And I think it worked.

But I have never really liked the categorizational term 'race' when speaking of Dwarves, Elves, Men and Hobbits; because really, they ar all 'humans'!

But I think the primary difference between Elves and Men was stated well by ithrynluin: I am fond of their love for nature, whereas Men tend to destroy it in their search for power and are less in sync with Mother Earth.
And what makes Elves truly 'human' is their capacity for both wonderous achievements, as well as mistakes. No human creature is human if it has no flaws.

 

[Elfhelm25]

It rather depends on your definition of superior. Do you mean superior in a moral sense, or in a physical sense? Tolkien himself repeats several times that the Elves represent particular aspects of Men:

I mean whatever you mean, Niniel. I'm just curious to what people perceive elves to be.

And what makes Elves truly 'human' is their capacity for both wonderous achievements, as well as mistakes. No human creature is human if it has no flaws.

Interesting, Lantarion ! I think flaws are definetly a human-like trait too.

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event

Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them. ....

I would say that physically then, there is little question that elves are superior. Unless one would consider the ability to leave the world when you wish ( as earlier humans could do ? ) and a small amount of time to accomplish a great deal to be perhaps a superior trait in another sense, so to say that elves will fade eventually, but men have the power to leave the world when they wish, therefore are not as tied to it nor as fearful to make changes, whether good or bad. I suppose it's all in the way you see it. It could easily be either way.

Now, the more complex issue- psycholigically and morally are elves superior ? Hmm...

They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of
great excellence.

So they are capable of great talents, above those of men. Is this because they have a longer time to strengthen their talents than men or because from birth they are blessed with greater abilities than men ?
As well, while being capable of producing wonderful things, they are capable of producing terrible things. A similar quality of men. Is it the range of their wonderful and terrible creations compared with that of men that could be considered superior ? For example, all good and evil men die. On the other hand, all good and evil elves can live an immortal life, therefore capable of doing greater things ( or worse damage) than men. Would this even them out as on par with men, or does the fact that they are capable of more a sign of superiority ?

Really interesting comments, guys ! There are some great suggestions and points of view from you all !

 

[Lantarion]

Unless one would consider the ability to leave the world when you wish ( as earlier humans could do ? )

Hehe no, 'earlier' humans were just snivelling piles of weakness, or bulky idiotic neanderthalian clods. Who ended up worshiping Melkor and Sauron, by the way!

As well, while being capable of producing wonderful things, they are capable of producing terrible things. A similar quality of men. Is it the range of their wonderful and terrible creations compared with that of men that could be considered superior ? For example, all good and evil men die. On the other hand, all good and evil elves can live an immortal life, therefore capable of doing greater things ( or worse damage) than men. Would this even them out as on par with men, or does the fact that they are capable of more a sign of superiority ?

Marvelous points! Many of which I agree with. I'd comment them if I wasn't so ill and tired.

 

[Húrin Thalion]

I think elves are superior. Though I am generally a rational peerson, who appreciates the great virtues seen in men, for example initiative, organization, extreme rationality and craftiness, I must admit taht I personally admire the elves more. That is for their creativity, that is for their poetry, that is for their appreciationof beauty. The eleves to me represent a higher ideal, what we want to be but cannot, artistic, aloof, wise and slightly distant. I admire men for what they are, and tbecause they are like men in our own world, but being what we want to be, that is greater. And I have always considered culture a more valuable thing than whatever else our civilization might create.

Måns

 

[Ancalagon]

Men have to be admired for their bravery, over that of the average Elf. Men who undertake feats of daring have the knowledge that with their death comes uncertainty, while Elves know that they have a place in the Halls of Waiting and the freedom of spirit to reside within Valinor. This alone leads me to admire the Human Race more than Elves, for death to Men is final and as such, to overcome such fear in laying down their lives is the greater burden to carry.

 

[Lúthien Séregon]

I've sort of got a theory concerning Men and Elves. In Middle-Earth, Men seem to be less "perfect" than the Elves, with both more flaws and susceptibility to flaws, and a shorter life span. However, I often wonder, is this true of Men when they pass away? Eru's designs for humans after death was never revealed to even the Valar, so I always had the feeling that whilst Arda was the Elves' true home, in which they were practically immortal and the wisest of the children of Iluvatar, humankind's was somewhere else, where they had a chance to be perfect and show their nobility, and perhaps the free will granted to Men would be indicative of the type of place that they would go to, like a test in a way ( which sort of reminds me of the Christian belief of heaven, perhaps not so surprising considering Tolkien was Christian ).

 

[Lantarion]

Yes Lúthien; Maybe Men evolve to a higher plain of existence each time a life of theirs ends..?

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
The eleves to me represent a higher ideal, what we want to be but cannot, artistic, aloof, wise and slightly distant

French students represent all that to you?!
Haha sorry..

But perhaps a reason for the Elves' somehow inherent skills and beauty etc. are really only the 'symptoms' of an actual cause.
Tolkien mentions at some point, in his Letters of otherwise, that Elves have some odd innate 'magical' ability. Like Sam and Galadriel's quick dialogue about 'Elvish magic'. Perhaps this underlying trait is actually what differentiates Elves from Men; andmaybe Men acquire something greater than that when they die?

 

[Helcaraxë]

I'd like to quote FotR, if I may.

The Elves may fear the dark lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

-Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring, "Many Meetings."

It would appear that the Elves (at least the Elves of Valinor) had power in this "unseen", wraith world that Men did not.

--MB