🧙Gandalf the strongest Maiar

[Maegnas]

If Gandalf was the strongest Maiar then how did Suarmon beat him at battling in the Fellowship?

 

[Inderjit S]

He was the wisest not the strongest, there is a difference.

He never fought Saruman (well not to my recollection.)

Besides, the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth incarnate and shorn of a great deal of their inherent powers.

 

[Maegnas]

What about when Saruman held Gandalf captive in his tower.

 

[Celebthôl]

He tricked him into that, he had a way with words, Gandalf fell into that trap once, thats how, but the next time they met Gandalf had the power of voice over Saruman. . .

 

[Maegnas]

Thanks Celebthol I have another quastion who was the strongest Maiar?

 

[Inderjit S]

Saruman didn't fight Gandalf and then thrust him on top of the tower. He was trapped, and Saruman's guards took him to the pinnacle of Orthanc. There was no hope of escape from his enemies citadel anyway. Gandalf was strong, but not invincible.

have another quastion who was the strongest Maiar

In battle, presumably Eonwë.

 

[Phenix]

I'd say sauron would be one of the stronger ones....atleast one of the most powerfull on the evil side....

 

[Celebthôl]

I recon Melian was.

 

[Aragorn21]

I have a question also. How Gandalf get his staff back after being trapped on orthanc? is the mentioned somewhere?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
I recon Melian was.

Melian the strongest Maia? Where did you get that impression?

How Gandalf get his staff back after being trapped on orthanc?

He could have simply obtained a new one. I don't think there's any indication that the Wizard's staffs were unique and irreplacable.

 

[Celebthôl]

Melian the strongest Maia? Where did you get that impression?

The girdle of Melian, her foresight, she even bared Morgoth from coming into Thingols land, being able to restrain the mightiest being on Arda isnt an easy feat. . . its just my opinion as much as anything else. . .

 

[Ithrynluin]

I was thinking of physical strength, so we can discount foresight and wisdom. The Girdle is powerful, but I don't think it would hold off Morgoth himself. Just because he didn't attempt to cross it, doesn't mean he couldn't do it (he only left his fortress once). Melian is still only a Maia.

 

[Celebthôl]

How many other Maias had a girdle?

Sauron?
Saruman?
Gandalf?

I dont recall any of them having one, although the Sauron and Saruman would have loved them im sure. . .

But if it is in physical strength only, then i guess Eonwë would be correct, didnt he lead the host of the Valar against Morgoth?

 

[Lantarion]

Well he led a host, but I should think that the Valar just leaped around on their own.

Well have we all discounted Gandalf as 'the White'? It seems to me like he was basically the most powerful Maia in M-e at that point, possibly including Sauron. But we're not given a terribly exact description of his 'powers' (which is a good thing; vagueness or mysticism are often good qualities in a story), except that by a simple word he cracks a staff which is fairly far above him (I doubt her even had eye contact with it).

But yeah, Eönwë definately; and Sauron's 'powers' were 90% guile and trickery (like with Tol-in-Gaurhoth), so should he be discounted? I don't think so.
A Maia's powers (I like the term 'Valinorean stature') should not only be defined in terms of physical prowess or strength.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
I have a question also. How Gandalf get his staff back after being trapped on orthanc? is the mentioned somewhere?

The only Mention of this that I can think of at the moment is during the council of Elrond as Gandalf talks about the time he was imprisoned on the top of Orthanc. Frodo then tells of his dream in the house of Bombadil where he saw Gandalf with his staff. As Gandalf seemed to endorce the accuracy of the dream or "Vision" of Frodo it seems quite possible that Saruman could not take the Staff from Gandalf and so he would not have had to replace it.

Another point to this, when Gandalf spoke to Saruman after the destruction of the ring of Isengard by the Ents, he did not take Saruman's staff but when Saruman refused to give it up volanterally Gandlaf then Broke it. So I would say that the Staff of an Istari could not be taken by another but could be broken. This also seems to point to the conclusion that the Staffs did indeed have importance. The question is just how important were they?

 

[Beleg]

Gothmog posted,

The question is just how important were they?

Hmm, how important?

Let's see.

Harad posted this in an answer to a question of mine

• MAKE LIGHT
  
  
  from LOTR
  
  
  

  He could As the wizard passed on ahead up the great steps, he held his staff aloft, and from its tip there came a faint radiance.

  [/list=a]
  
  
  
  • MAKE FIRE
    
    
    
    

    ibid
    Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and then with a word of command, naur an edraith ammen! he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered.

    [/list=b]
    
    
    • EMPHASIZE SPELLS?
      
      
      

      ibid
      Picking up his staff he stood before the rock and said in a clear voice: Mellon!

      [/list=c]
      
      
      
      • MAKE RUNES FADE?
        
        
        

        ibid
        He stepped up to the rock again, and lightly touched with his staff the silver star in the middle beneath the sign of the anvil.
        Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen!
        Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!
        he said in a commanding voice. The silver lines faded, but the blank grey stone did not stir.

        [/list=d]
        
        
        
        • OPEN UNBLOCKED DOORS
          
          
          
          

          ibid
          They heard Gandalf go back down the steps and thrust his staff against the doors. There was a quiver in the stone and the stairs trembled, but the doors did not open.

          [/list=e]
          
          
          
          • DESTROY BRIDGES
            
            
            
            

            ibid
            At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.

            [/list=f]
            
            
            
            • DISARM OPPONENTS
              
              

              ibid
              He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.

              [/list=g]
              
              
              
              • MAKE THUNDER AND DARKNESS
                
                

                ibid
                He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.

                [/list=h]

 

[Gothmog]

And there is also this

At that moment he caught a flash of white and silver coming from the North, like a small star down on the dusky fields. It moved with the speed of an arrow and grew as it came, converging swiftly with the flight of the four men towards the Gate. It seemed to Pippin that a pale light was spread about it and the heavy shadows gave way before it; and then as it drew near he thought that he heard, like an echo in the walls, a great voice calling. 'Gandalf!'
he cried. 'Gandalf! He always turns up when things are darkest. Go on! Go on, White Rider! Gandalf, Gandalf!' he shouted wildly, like an onlooker at a great race urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragement.
But now the dark swooping shadows were aware of the newcomer. One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgúl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away; and with that the four others wavered, and then rising in swift spirals they passed away eastward vanishing into the lowering cloud above; and down on the Pelennor it seemed for a while less dark.

From Return of the King: The seige of Gondor

Gandalf did not make use of his staff in this one so I ask once more "Just How Important are the Staffs to the Istari?" Did they need the staff to be able to use many of their powers or were they more symbolic?

 

[Helcaraxë]

At the bridge of Khazad Dum, Gandalf made the "blinding sheet of white flame" AFTER his staff had been broken. Of course, this may only be an after-effect. However, how could Gandalf have fought the Balrog at the Battle of the Peak if he required his staff. Also, Tolkien says in one of his letters (don't have the exact quote) that most magic in LotR was the result of an inherent faculty of the magic-user. The more "spell-oriented" magic used by the Istari (incantations, for instance) was secondary. (All Ainur, and many powerful elves, possessed innate powers that could be considered magical.)

--MB

 

[Gildor]

A wizard's staff seems to be a symbol and focus of their power...something like a lens or antenna that allows them to more easily direct their energies. The staff is quite important and helpful, but the wizard is not completely powerless without it.

Gandalf's breaking of Saruman's staff was symbolic of banishing him from the order, but I believe that being cast out diminished Saruman far more than the loss of his staff did.

 

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Lantarion
Well have we all discounted Gandalf as 'the White'? It seems to me like he was basically the most powerful Maia in M-e at that point, possibly including Sauron. But we're not given a terribly exact description of his 'powers' (which is a good thing; vagueness or mysticism are often good qualities in a story), except that by a simple word he cracks a staff which is fairly far above him (I doubt her even had eye contact with it).

Well...

I am Gandalf the White, but the Black is mightier still.

Gandalf is not overconfident when he confronts the Witch-King, remember (check his words about it to Denethor); and the Witch-King is extremely overconfident. I don't think the Witch-King was stupid, hehe. He might have been mistaken, sure, but even so I think it unlikely that Gandalf would simply zap him away. It would have been a mighty battle; the Witch-King was, quite likely, a more dangerous foe at that moment than even the Balrog was.

(Just an idea to throw around ).