Gandalfs Staff

[Maeglin]

Gandalf's Staff

Gandalf jumped off of the top of the Tower of Orthanc, but surely Saruman did not give him his staff and say go up to the roof now so I can leave you there forever and Gandalf listened, so how did he get his staff back after escaping Isengard?


I have merged the threads of Kahmul and Glorfindel1187 as they are on the same subject.

Gothmog

 

[Niniel]

I'm sure there must be a thread about this. I think he made another staff, since it's made of wood he could just make a new one. The only problem is the thing that's in it (I mean the thing that in the film is shown as the glowing stone in Moria). It must be something magical that wasn't easy to replace, so I have no idea about that.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Opinions differ on this subject. Some say the staff only had symbolic value as an item of power and nobility (similar to the sceptres of kings), and others claim that it was irreplaceable and was the source of power for the wizards.

Did Gandalf lose his staff after being imprisoned in Isengard?

 

[Maeglin]

Well I would assume so cause do you really think that Saruman would leave Gandalf on his roof with his staff still in his hand?

 

[Ithrynluin]

How exactly did Saruman take the staff from Gandalf? They are both Maiar, and even though Saruman was the head of the Order, Gandalf is not a little child from whom you can take candy just like that.

 

[Anamatar IV]

Is it even ever said how saruman imprisoned Gandalf? I sincerely hope it wasnt like they did it in the movie.

 

[Maeglin]

Well maybe Gandalf left it at the door along with his coat when he came in.

Well Anamatar it says nothing about a big fight in the book(not that I can remember anyway) but Gandalf was imprisoned on the roof of Orthanc, but in the book there was a very narrow staircase outside of the tower that he could have climbed down if he wished, but if he fell he'd sorta be dead, so he didn't do that.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
Well maybe Gandalf left it at the door along with his coat when he came in.

Oh yes, any visitor to Isengard had to ring the bell at the front door, and was then admitted inside by Saruman's personal butler/footman. They took the visitor's coats and any other "needless" baggage and showed them into the drawing room to offer them some tea.

Oh I'm being silly.

 

[lightingstrike]

He did not jump.

At least in the movie, he din't jump. A giant eagle came after he had sent it a message with a sort of insect. I know that he definetly either made another staff or got his old one back becase he use it on several occasians after that like pointing to the elven language on the door to the mines of Moria.

 

[Maeglin]

Well yes that is apparent, but the question being addressed here is how he got his staff back.

 

[Celebthôl]

No, No, No, No, No, No, No, he has a different staff when hes in Rivendell, i have heard this type of thing before, he looses it at Isenguard, and gets another one at Rivendell!

Thôl

 

[Mablung]

I guess Elrond was just keeping a spare for him.

 

[LoreMaster]

If I recall correctly, the book never indicates that Saruman took Gandalf's staff. Also, there wasn't any insect that visited Gandalf before the eagle. In the book, Saruman had the third wizard Radagast send Gandalf to him, although Radagast was unaware of Saruman's plans. Gandalf told Radagast to have his friends among the beasts and birds send any new tidings about how the Nine were searching for the Shire to Saruman and he. The eagle visited Gandalf after he was imprisoned to bear news but ended up taking him for a ride.

 

[Kelonus]

All I know in the FOTR, they fought and Saruman one. With his powers he took Gandalfs staff and then lifted him to the roof. I dont know how he got his staff back.

 

[Maeglin]

Yes yes we know all of that! And I know that it is never directly stated that Saruman took Gandalf's staff, but I sincerely do not think that he is stupid enought to leave Gandalf on his roof with his staff.

 

[Celebthôl]

i thought Gandalf in the film sent that moth to get Gwahir (sp) or whoever it was to help him escape.

Thôl

 

[LoreMaster]

I'm not going by the movie, but rather by the book. In the book, Saruman and Gandalf do not fight with their staffs. When Gandalf does not join with Saruman, he is taken to the top by some method which he did not relate when he spoke to the Council of Elrond of what happened to him(the movie does not include this speech).I don't know if his staff would have helped him during his imprisonment. I would think that if Saruman had taken his staff, he would have mentioned it at the Council.

According to the book, no other animal purposely visits Gandalf before the eagle.

 

[Gothmog]

The only points that have valididty in this section of the forum come from the book.

In the Book it is not said that Saruman took the staff from Gandalf. In fact the only reference to this comes from Frodo's dream in the House of Bombadil where he sees in his dream Gandalf pacing on the top of a tower and then a light coming "from his Staff" to show Gwahir where he was.

As a side note. When Gandalf became the "White" and confronted Saruman, he "Asked" Saruman to "surrender" his staff as a pledge of his conduct. He did not Take it but when refused Gandalf "Broke" the staff of Saruman.

It may well be that it is beyond the power of Any Istari to "Take" the staff from another. Gandalf seemed to have only the choice of asking for Saruman to surrener it or to exert the extra power he had been allowed to use and break it.

 

[Lantarion]

*cough*!speculation!*cough*
But no, I think you might be on to something there Goth; although you have zero evidence to prove it!
Actually, Lightningstrike, Gandalf did jump from Orthanc in the movie; right onto Gwaihir's back! Welcome to the forum!

But I agree with Glorfindel that, although it is uncertain whether the Istari need the staffs to somehow channel their Maia-energies, I don't think Saruman would have let gandalf keep his staff. BUT I think it could be possible, althuogh this would imply that the staffs did in fact only have symbolic meaning. On the other hand, if the Istari were not allowed, or simply couldn't, perform any such magic that would have somehow magicked Gandalf from the pinnacle, Saruman wouldn't mind Gandalf having something to lean on; no, wait, Saruman was a meanie wasn't he.. AAARGH!

 

[Niniel]

Gandalf the White was something completely different from Gandalf the Grey; he was far more powerful than he was before and also far more powerful than Saruman. They were both still Maia, but Gandalf was on a different level than Saruman, since he had already died. He was in essence only a spiritual being (remember that he said to Aragorn & co: "None of you have any weapon that could hurt me"). So as Gandalf the White he could just easily take Saruman's staff.
As Gandalf the Grey he was weaker than Saruman; I don't know if he was actually weaker in not having the same powers at all, or that he had the same powers but just couldn't use them because he was forbidden by the Valar. Anyway, Saruman could have taken Gandalf's staff, and I don't think he would let Gandalf keep it. Even Háma knew that isn't a smart thing to do: "The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age." So I think Saruman did take Gandalf's staff, but that still leaves unsolved the mistery of how he got a new one...