How much do you hate 🧝Feanor!?!?!?!

[Celebthôl]

K i cant be bothered with you anymore, and for crying out loud can a mod delete this before i use harsh language...

 

[YayGollum]

Delete what? The entire thread? That's not good. I thought it was fun. You are an achingly stubborn person just like Feanor. I don't get why you hate the guy so much. Maybe you just didn't explain yourself very well. These other people have stolen all of the responses to your pointses that I would have used. You don't understand any of those responses? Or do you just have ways to prove them wrong? just curious. I have good reasons for stubbornly sticking to my crazy ideas. just like Feanor. Do you?

 

[Lantarion]

I just noticed that I was also too hasty in calling Fëanor the Biggest Jerk Ever..
He certainly did some horrid things; but so did Maeglin and Eöl, and others, and I don't see you bashing them.
And in the end it was due to Fëanor's inherent, fiercely burning spirit that caused him to make rash decisions; and because of his great pride he did not renounce his vows or recant his insults, but stuck by them as he should.
ANd as Beleg pointed out, he had such overwhelming positive qualities and he wrought so much good in Arda that being paranoid, grumpy and quick to anger don't seem like such inhuman traits.
He changed the fate of all of Arda, let's put it that way. He did awful things; but don't we all?

 

[Celebthôl]

I will answer ur questions later, im haveing an utter naff day/week, but i will answer them when im not really MAD...

 

[Elf Goddess]

Fëanor makes me sick.

 

[Arvedui]

I would like to know why people hate Fëanor!

Is it because he was unwilling to give the Silmarils to Yavanna, so that she could recreate the Trees?
Then I can't agree with you. Read that part of the Silmarillion again, and try to put yourselves in Fëanor's place:
There you are, all by your lonesome. All the Valar, Maiar and the Firstborn (except the Teleri) are present, and they have suffered a great shock and loss, and to repair that, they demand that you should give up what you have made by your own hands. Something you know is the greatest you can ever accomplish, and that you won't be able to do again. And there is this impatient Vala, Tulkas, not even letting you use the time needed to contemplate this, but wanting an answer now!

Is it because he brought with him the Noldor to Middle-earth in puruit of Morgoth, seeking vengeance?
Consider what vengeance he sought:

Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

Is it because he rebelled against the Valar, and and broke the doom of banishment?
I owe that to his lust for vengeance, which I explained above.

Or is it the theft of the ships, and the kinslaying at Alqualondë?
I agree that there is no excuse for this.

But I would like to close this post with the following: If the Valar had been able to understand Fëanor a little better, and had not sat on their high thrones with their noses in the sky, much of what later befell could have been avoided. After all, he was a victim of the lies and deceit of one of their like, as he saw it. And none of the Valar ever tried to explain to him why there was a difference between Melkor and themselves. All they did was to feel insulted. And those were the ones that was supposed to govern Arda? If there is any blame to hand out for what befell Fëanor, the Valar should get most of that.

 

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Is it because he was unwilling to give the Silmarils to Yavanna, so that she could recreate the Trees?
Then I can't agree with you. Read that part of the Silmarillion again, and try to put yourselves in Fëanor's place:
There you are, all by your lonesome. All the Valar, Maiar and the Firstborn (except the Teleri) are present, and they have suffered a great shock and loss, and to repair that, they demand that you should give up what you have made by your own hands. Something you know is the greatest you can ever accomplish, and that you won't be able to do again. And there is this impatient Vala, Tulkas, not even letting you use the time needed to contemplate this, but wanting an answer now!

Right on. If any of us were put in his place, we would not have acted differently. Besides, what was Fëanor going to gain from the restoration (not recreation ) of the Trees?

 

[Arvedui]

(not recreation )

I got it....

And also, look at the bright side:
If Melkor had not destroyed the two Trees, we would not have had the Sun and the Moon to give light to the whole of Arda, just a couple of Trees giving away some light far in the west.
The same would have been the case if Fëanor had given up the Silmarils.

 

[HelplessModAddi]

why not blame Morgoth for what happend to Feanor?

the great Feanor was so hurt by Morgoth.

He was one of Morgoth's greatest tools is why.

Morgoth was connected to all the evil happenings.

Morgoth was the base behind all the evil that was created/stirred in Arda Marred Including Valinor.

Okay, I'm getting a complex here. Melkor did it. Morgoth started it. It's all Morgoth's fault. Melkor made Feanor do everything bad. Melkor makes everyone do everything bad. What stops you from saying here that Melkor made you lie to your parents? Whats stopping you from saying that Melkor made you commit murder? Its a question of responsibility. Melkor didn't make Feanor do anything. The final choice was his. Feanor wouldn't know responsibility if it bit him in the ***. So Feanor led thousands into exile, pain, and death, eventual fading, the degeneration of middle-earth, and his actions affected almost everyone the same way, so it must have been Melkor's fault! Feanor did it. Feanor had the choice. If you do something wrong, you have to take responsibility.

Another point. Feanor IS Melkor. Think about this for a second: the four greatest Valar are the spirits of air, water, earth, and fire, or Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, and Melkor, respectively. Manwe is the spirit of air, Ulmo is the spirit of water, Aule is the spirit of earth, and Melkor is the spirit of fire. Fea-anor: Spirit of Fire. Interesting, no?

 

[YayGollum]

Mel gets to be counted as a Valar? And since when is he associated with fire? I thought he was more of an achingly well rounded type. The best Valar type thing there ever was. oh well. I must have missed where people said that Mel made Feanor do things. Of course Feanor had choices. Too bad he was just so achingly stubborn. That's why I like him so much. Mel does evil things. Feanor reacts achingly stubbornly. And sensibly, if you feel like thinking about it.

 

[HelplessModAddi]

OK, so Mel's not a Vala, but he is an Ainu as a race. And is it that hard to envision Melkor as the spirit of fire? Balrogs are fire spirits. Angband is created from "furnace ash" i.e. volcanoes. Several times during the War of the Jewels battles were heralded by liquid fire. Dragons breathe fire. If you think about it, Melkor could have used piercing (sp?) frost, or solid rock monsters, or lightning, or acid, but it was always fire.

 

[Celebthôl]

Thats not a bad theory actually, as no Fire Valar is ever mentioned though they have: Air, Water, Earth etc...

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by HelplessModAddi
Okay, I'm getting a complex here. Melkor did it. Morgoth started it. It's all Morgoth's fault. Melkor made Feanor do everything bad. Melkor makes everyone do everything bad. What stops you from saying here that Melkor made you lie to your parents? Whats stopping you from saying that Melkor made you commit murder? Its a question of responsibility. Melkor didn't make Feanor do anything. The final choice was his. Feanor wouldn't know responsibility if it bit him in the ***. So Feanor led thousands into exile, pain, and death, eventual fading, the degeneration of middle-earth, and his actions affected almost everyone the same way, so it must have been Melkor's fault! Feanor did it. Feanor had the choice. If you do something wrong, you have to take responsibility.

You say this in reply to several statements or parts of statements. I'll address the ones that were made by me.

You have taken them out of context.


You quote me on: why not blame Morgoth for what happend to Feanor?

Now lets take a look at the full statement...

"But do you blame Feanor for his sons taking the oath? And if so, why not blame Morgoth for what happend to Feanor?"

I didn't say that Morgoth should get all of the blame for Feanor's actions. I implied that Feanor should not take all of the blame for his sons', or if he should, then by that same reasoning why not blame Morgoth for Feanor.

I made that statement in reply to this one by Celebthol: "8thly: The oath he took eventually got carried to his sons who after it was all ammended stole the jewels and killed the guards and died and took the Silmarills with them to the deeps of the world."




You quote me on: the great Feanor was so hurt by Morgoth.

The full statement is "I think that Feanor's reasons are made clear enough to us, and I think it is sad that the great Feanor was so hurt by Morgoth."

Feanor was touched by the evil Morgoth, and used as a tool (I'll get to tha below), I find it a sad thing for the Eldar, that Feanor was marred.

You quote me on this:Morgoth was connected to all the evil happenings.

I said that not as an exucse for the bad things that Feanor did, but in reply to Celebthol's statement about Feanor: "Im not saying he was connected to certain things that happened, he was connected to EVERYTHING bad that happened!" It was also because of that statement that I said another thing that you quote me on: He was one of Morgoth's greatest tools is why.


Still getting that complex?

 

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by HelplessModAddi
Its a question of responsibility. Melkor didn't make Feanor do anything. The final choice was his.

Melkor personally did not make Feanor do anything,but Melkor's actions did make Feanor do something.I just wonder if Feanor hadn't done anything what kind of elf he would have been?The biggest idiot or what?
Yes,the choice was his,but did he have another one?What choice did he have?

 

[HelplessModAddi]

There is always a choice - usually its between bad and worse, but theres always a choice. If Feanor had chosen to rely on reason instead of pride to make his decisions, much evil might have been averted. He had a perceptive mind; he could have uncovered, if he so desired, the true fountain of discontent when the shadow fell on the Noldor, but he chose to participate in the madness because it stroked his ego to have finally found an outlet for his latent frustrations against his half-siblings. Feanor was an Elf, essentially a human being, and Melkor could not make Feanor's choices for him because he is a free individual. Because he had the right to make choices he had the responsibility to consider the consequences of his actions. All sentient beings have free will; this is what sets the Children of Illuvatar apart from Orcs. The unwitting accomplice is (generally) as guilty as the evil mastermind, because the unwitting accomplice refuses to question himself. Melkor is not at fault for corrupting Feanor any more than Feanor is for allowing himself to be corrupted.

EDIT: Oh yeah Nom, sorry if I took your posts out of context. I needed quotes to exhibit as evidence that some people were evidently blaming Melkor for Feanor's mistakes.

 

[YayGollum]

What was that about Mel's actions making Feanor do things? Isn't that the same thing as saying that Mel made the guy do things? oh well. Both are wrong. They guy had free will. He reacted a certain way. Nobody made him do anything. He could have just sat in one place and never talked to anyone again. It is possible. He was just way too cool for that.

What was that about Feanor thinking about treachery? Am I forgetting a part of The Sil? Maybe so. I don't know. I like to think that Feanor left those other elves over there because he knew they were more hesitant about following him than some of the others. He was being nice. He never forced them to follow him in an achingly untelligent and suicidal way.

 

[syongstar]

trees to sun and moon

perhaps their is " a time for every purpose" everything happens for a reason and rain creates growth?~~*~~

 

[ely]

Ummm.... I'm not sure if someone hasn't said it already, for I was too eager to say what I think about this subject, but wasn't it said in the Silmarillion that even if Feanor had agreed to give Silmarils to save the trees, Morgoth had stolen them and while they would have been trying to get the Silmarils back, the Two Trees would have died? Correct me if I'm wrong, please...

About Feanor: I don't hate him, but I don't like him either. I could forgive the guy anything but his stupid oath and that he made his sons also part of it. Destroy yourself if you want to, but not your family!

Anyway, even if Feanor hadn't done anything evil, Morgoth would have surely found someone else to use as his tool...

 

[YayGollum]

I don't remember all of that craziness that you weren't sure about, but oh well. Maybe someone else does. sorry about that. Sounds crazy to me, though. Anyways, sure, I'll agree with all of that except for the thing about the superly cool Feanor being evil for the fact that his sons took the same oath he did. Feanor never forced them.

 

[ely]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Anyways, sure, I'll agree with all of that except for the thing about the superly cool Feanor being evil for the fact that his sons took the same oath he did. Feanor never forced them.

Well, he didn't force them, but he should have told them not to do it. He should have protected them. Or at least he should have taken a more reasonable oath, something like they try to get the Silmarils back or get them back from dark forces.