Length of the First Age?

[Peeping-Tom]

I'm sorry if this is to be found elsewhere...
...but the search-engine gave me more than 3000 posts with anything else, but the Length of the first age...:*mad:

Where are the written definitions for the first "Sun-Age"?

I've seen some, stating that the first age started at the rise of the sun and the awakening of Men. That gives a first age of only aprox. 580 years.

Tolkien ment for the first age to start at the awakening of the firstborn :

'Here begin the Elder Days, or the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar.'
(The History of Middle-earth volume 11, 3 V The Tale of Years; comment, relating to the time of the awakening of the Elves)


'The First Age was the longest.'
(The History of Middle-earth volume 12, 1 VI The Tale of Years of the Second Age)


With a second and third age of aprox 3000 years each, how can the first age be the longest, if it only lastet for 580 years?

But yet, how can one count the years, without a reference (the sun)?

Is this a Blooper? What do you believe?

 

[Elthir]

Before there were Sun Years there was the reckoning of the Years of the Trees for instance.

This reckoning begins before the Elves awaken, and could be generally used to establish a First Age beginning from the point when they awake.

 

[Thorin]

After 3500 Valian Years (or 33500 of our years), the two trees began to tell time. After 1050 VY from the flowering of the trees,, the Elves awoke (4550 VY or 45500 of our years). in the VY 5000, the First Age ended. Hence, the length of the First Age was 50 VY or 500 of our years from when the Elves awoke and the Sun and Moon time reckoning began.

 

[Thorin]

Actually, I'm going to have to research this further. For some reason, based on my studies in the past, I had deduced that Cirdan was about 2000 years older than Galadriel. This would be impossible if the First Age was only 500 years from the awakening of the Elves as both Galadriel and Cirdan existed before the Second Age.

Either the First Age was much longer than I thought or the First Age didn't officially begin when the Elves awoke.

Must delve back into Morgoth's Ring much deeper!

 

[Elthir]

I'm confused as to how you've arrived at 500 years Thorin.

Even considering just the Sun Years of the First Age we have 590 years. And if one considers the First Age to begin with the awakening of the Quendi (I do myself, incidentally), one could then add the years from the awakening of the Quendi to the start of Sun Year reckoning, using the ratio 1 VY = 9.582 SYs (the ratio 1 VY = 144 SYs aside for the moment).

Without doing the exact math, it seems this would make the 'First Age' the longest in any event.

 

[Thorin]

I think I was measuring the First Age from when the Sun began time reckoning because that is when some sources put the start of the First Age, and not when the Elves awoke. I knew there was a reason why I put Cirdan so much older than Galadriel. That's what happens when you are away from Tolkien so long. You forget things and change your opinions forgetting your previous ones!

Hold on here, let me get Morgoth's Ring....*'rustle, rustle, page flip here and there'*

Ah yes..

Okay the Quendi awoke in YT 1050. The sun came about in 1500 YT. Thus about 4312 years passed.

Finarfin, Galadriel's father was born in 1230. Galadriel was born approximately 1362 YT. From the Elves awakening to Galadriel's birth was about 2990 years. In 1105, the Elves began their journey west, some 527 years after they awoke. We see that the Teleri settled along the shores of Beleriand in 1132. In 1149 it says that 'Cirdan was their lord'. This puts Cirdan building ships as happy as be some 2040 years before Galadriel was born. We could assume that Cirdan was one of those settled there in 1132, thus adding another170 years+ onto Cirdan's life.

Ah, it's all coming back to me now! :*)

 

[PanconJamon]

Wikipedia states that the Elves awoke at Cuivienen in VY4550, and the Sun first sailed on VY5000

That's a total of VY450, so ~4500 years of the Sun.

Now taking VY5000 as the first Year of the Sun, Morgoth was defeated on 590.

So, if we do our math, ~4500 + 590 = ~5090 years would be the total length of the First Age, which seems fairly reasonable.

Also, according to that same source, if Cirdan awoke in Cuivienen, and Galadriel was born on VY4863 we have a difference of VY363 or ~3630 years between them, which is a little more than what Thorin had calculated.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda#First_Age

 

[Thorin]

However, we don't have any evidence that Cirdan was one of the original Elves who awoke. Remember that there was over 780 years from when the Elves awoke to when the Teleri settled by the shores of Beleriand. Cirdan could have been born only a 100 or so years or 600 years before the Teleri settled and Cirdan was their Lord.

Even if Cirdan was one of the originals, he would still be only 3120 years older than Galadriel taking into account that 1 VY=9.582 sun years as is laid out in Morgoth's Ring.

I guess we will have to speculate that Cirdan would be between 2000-3000 years older than Galadriel.