HLGStrider said:
I think there is more to being a wraith than being invisible.
I agree. But, being invisible means being made into a shadow (at least in
Middle Earth). In The
Hobbit and in LOTR (I believe) it is said that when wearing
the Ring a person still casts a dim shadow.
HLGStrider said:
A Wraith lacks will, soul, and life, three things I would argue both
Frodo and
Bilbo possessed while wearing their rings.
A wraith's will is subject to
Sauron's and his soul may be in subjection to Sauron, but the wraith still has them and still lives. If a wraith was not alive, how could the head
Witch King be killed at the battle of
Pelennor Fields? And yes, I agree Frodo and Bilbo (and
Sam) were still in control of all three when they wore the Ring.
You are equating being a shadow with being a wraith and arguing that when it says
dwarves could not be reduced to shadows it means they could not be made into wraiths. But Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and
Gollum were all made into shadows by the Ring without being made into wraiths. "Shadow" clearly does equal wraith, though a wraith is a shadow. When it says dwarves could not be reduced to shadows, it means they could not be made invisible.
HLGStrider said:
When wearing the ring, Frodo was in the Wraith world, but he wasn't a Wraith. He was not a natural inhabitant of that world, rather a trespasser. That is why they needed the stab of a
knife to add permanence to his condition.
Yes, when Frodo wore the Ring he was in the wraith world (
Gandalf tells him that at
Rivendell), and if the broken peice of the
morgul knife had succeeded in piercing his heart he would have become a wraith, at which point the Ring would have been irrelevant (as far as Frodo being in the wraith world is concerned).
HLGStrider said:
When Frodo wore the ring, Sauron had certain powers over him, I would say. He could detect and feel Frodo, probably see into his thoughts, and he would have some ability to sway Frodo and pull him towards Wraithhood. These are the rings powers over Frodo.
Here I disgree strongly. I think you letting yourself be influenced by the movie's portrayal of the Ring. In the
books, there are only two times when Sauron is aware of anyone wearing the Ring and both are special situations. One is when Frodo wears it as he sits on the Seat of Seeing at
Amon Hen. We can infer this is a special place, just from its name. Sauron is unaware of Frodo before he sits on the Seat (when he wears the Ring to escape from
Boromir) and Sauron is unaware of Frodo when Frodo puts the Ring back on after leaving the Seat of Seeing. Indeed, even while Frodo is on the Seat of Seeing wearing the Ring, Sauron only seems to be aware of him when Frodo actually gazes towards
Barad-dur. The only other time Sauron is aware of Frodo is when Frodo puts on the Ring at the Cracks of Doom and claims it for himself. The Crack's of Doom where the Ring was forged is certainly a special place and no one has before claimed the Ring as their own (a dorect challenge to Sauron). Sauron is unaware of Sam wearing the Ring and clearly was unaware of Bilbo when he wore the Ring. And Sauron certainly was unaware of Gollum wearing the Ring under the
mountains when Sauron was in
Dol Guldur.
HLGStrider said:
I don't think I'm twisting. If anything I think adding OVER into the phrase if that is what
Tolkien meant by it was actually a shoddy, ambiguous use of the language. . .IF that is what he meant. I don't see him as being that careless with important points of his life's work.
The passage means that the dwarves could not be subjugated to Sauron by the power of the Rings and one of the means of that subjugation was moving the Ring's possessor into the wraith world. It is the combination of the two passages together, "the only power of the Rings was to inflame the dwarves greed", and "the dwarves could not be reduced to shadows", that clearly states they could not be made invisible.