Mortals in the Undying Lands?

[Aulë]

Well it is said that Gimli went to the Undying Lands, but in the Appendices, his year of death is given.

 

[kohaku]

Oh, that would be so sad! I don't think Tolkien would want us to believe that.

that would be sad, but then again, Tolkien does write a lot of sad stories. I like to think they do meet again, but if it's true that mortals die sooner in the undying lands then it is unlikely.

 

[aragil]

If anybody is interested, there is a whole section in HoME v. X titled Aman and Mortal Men (Aman being another name for the undying lands). I won't give anything away, but I don't think it's entirely consistent with what the professor said in Letters.

 

[Goldberry]

Originally posted by Pippin_Took
Well it is said that Gimli went to the Undying Lands, but in the Appendices, his year of death is given.

There is no date of Gimli's death in the appendices. He went to the Undying Lands with Legolas and passed out of the knowledge of the men.

 

[pohuist]

I don't think Frodo was already dead by the time Sam got to Aman. If I remember correctly, it was within 50 years or so. Frodo would only have been a little over a 100 years old. While it is a respectful age for a hobbit, its nothing unusual. One burns faster in Aman but Frodo had the ring. Remember how old Gollum was?
Oh, and btw, Frodo did not actually go to Undying Lands, he only was in view of them, on Tol Eressea.

 

[Mirabella]

Yes, but the Ring only granted longetivity so long as it was in the possession of the bearer. Once the Ring was destroyed, so was its power over the life of its bearer. Consider what Arwen told Frodo:

For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away."

 

[Quercus]

I thought it was posessing the Silmaril that shortened Beren and Luthien's lives.

And what about Tour and Turin? Didn't they both become immortal?

 

[HLGStrider]

Turin threw himself on his sword...

 

[Sirion]

The light of the Silmarils were the trapped light of the two trees, the sun and the moon are also from the light of the two trees. Since the sun and the moon are closer to land in Aman, they burned away mortal life faster just as a Silmaril did.

It was my belief that Tol Eressea was considered part of the Undying Lands since elves live there.

 

[Eriol]

Please correct me if I am wrong, I'm saying this from memory, but for clarification:

Aman -- the name of the westernmost continent (land mass) before the world was made round. Now it is removed from the world.

Valinor -- the guarded land behind the Pelóri (big mountains) where the Valar dwell. It is an area inside Aman, but Aman has other regions as well. Ungoliant for instance came from the South of Aman, outside Valinor (I think it was called Araman).

Tol Eressëa -- the Island in which the Teleri came to the West. The Exiled Noldor live there after returning from M-E, they are not allowed to live in their original city, Tírion. (This always sounded a bit harsh for me, but they are close after all, and could visit their relatives (Finarfin's folk, mainly) easily).

Undying Lands -- these are the Lands in which the Valar dwell. So, by that definition (which could be argued, of course), only Valinor is included, since no Vala lives either on Tol Eressëa or in other places of Aman.

If anyone could provide quotes to support these definitions, they would be very welcome...

 

[Aulë]

Here you go Eriol, these quotes are straight out of EoA;

Aman: The continent on which the Valar made their home after the destruction of Almaren. There they founded Valinor, and there dwelt the Calaquendi; the Vanyar, the Noldor and those of the Teleri who journeyed from Middle-earth long before the First Age. There were dwellers in Aman before the Valar, though; Ungoliant had long existed in the southern land of Avathar.

To protect their realm from Melkor, the Valar raised a great range of mountains along the borders of Aman; the Pelóri or Mountains of Defence. They also filled the seas eastwards with shadows and Enchanted Isles.

In II 3319, King Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor, having been seduced and corrupted by Sauron, sailed on Aman with a great fleet. The King and his armies were destroyed, as was the land of Númenor, and Aman was taken out of the World. After that catastrophe, only the Elves could reach the Blessed Realm



Valinor:The land founded by the Valar after Melkor's destruction of their ancient dwelling of Almaren. Originally part of the World, Valinor could be reached by ship from Middle-earth. After the rebellion of King Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor in 3319 (Second Age), Valinor and the lands of Aman were removed from the circles of the World, and could only be reached by the Elves, following the straight road that was kept open to them.


Tol Eressëa:The Lonely Isle of the Elves of Aman, on which Ulmo brought the Elves to Valinor long ages before the rising of the Sun and Moon, and on which many still dwell within sight of the Blessed Realm

Undying Lands:A name of Aman, or at least that part of it inhabited by the Valar, Maiar and Elves. The island of Tol Eressëa is several times identified as the easternmost of the Undying Lands, and, at the least, Valinor must also be included.

'Undying Lands' seems to be a name that originated among Men. The Númenóreans, especially, envied the seemingly endless life of those who lived in these regions. From the first, the Valar placed a Ban on the Men of Númenor, that they should not sail into the West from their island, or set foot on the shores of Aman.

Wise as the Valar were, though, they did not foresee the wiles of Sauron. This great Maia falsely persuaded the last King of Númenor, Ar-Pharazôn, that the ruler of the Undying Lands would be undying himself. Believing Sauron, Ar-Pharazôn assembled a great navy and sailed westward to make hopeless war on the Valar for the imagined prize of endless life.

The Valar could not permit this: Manwë called upon Ilúvatar, and the land of Númenor was destroyed and lost forever. The Undying Lands, which until that time had been part of the World, were removed forever from the reach of Mortal Men, though the Elves could still sail West and come there, if they would.

It is to the Undying Lands that the White Ship sails at the end of The Lord of the Rings. The Ring-bearers, Bilbo and Frodo, were the first mortal beings to set foot on the shores of the Undying Lands. Tolkien is careful to point out, though, that even in Aman, mortals remain mortal.

 

[Eriol]

You are very welcome

 

[Sirion]

Originally posted by Niniel
Could you quote where Tolkien says that? I never thought of it that way, it's very interesting. That would also mean that Frodo and Sam never saw each other again (something we discussed a few weeks ago), since Frodo would probably already be dead when Sam got to the Undying lands.

I finally found the quote, it was in the Silmarillion:

"And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary sooner, as months in a light too strong and steadfast."

-The Akallabeth

As noted above, Tol Eressea is a part of Aman.

 

[aragil]

Contrast with HoME v. X, Aman and Mortal Men:

Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of the cohesion of hröa and fëa, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though his body would suffer no sickness or disorder in Aman, where no such evils existed. (unless Men brought these evils with them - as why should they not? Even the Eldar brought to the Blessed Realm some taint of the Shadow upon Arda in which they came into being.)
But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass — even as upon Earth the grass may rise in spring and wither ere the winter. Then he would become filled with envy, deeming himself a victim of injustice, being denied the graces given to all other things. He would not value what he had, but feeling that he was among the least and most despised of all creatures, he would grow soon to contemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed. He would not escape the fear and sorrow of his swift mortality that is his lot upon Earth, in Arda Marred, but would be burdened by it unbearably to the loss of all delight.

Not sure that I can reconcile what he's saying here. In one paragraph he says that Men will age normally ~100 years of the sun. In the next sentence he says that the whole life will only span one half-year. Even if you invoke the Valinorean year lasting ~10 years of the sun, these two statements seem to be in apposition. Anybody got an explanation?

 

[Eriol]

I think that in "For his whole life would last little more than one half-year", the word year actually refers to the Quenya yen (pl. yéni), which lasts for 144 years of the Sun. (Appendices of LotR). It seems Tolkien was thinking in Quenya when he wrote that... Is this a reasonable explanation?

 

[Goldberry]

But doesn't it seem contradictory that in the one place that Arwen sent Frodo, to find peace and rest, and be healed of all his wounds, would be the place that would burn him up and make him weary faster?

 

[Eriol]

I think that the "you would wither faster" sentence refers to a whole lifespan of a man, and is mainly psychological. This is possible if the "half-year" statement is really a translation from Quenya, so that the lifespan of men would be "little more than 72 years of the Sun". The Valar would be addressing the fact that if Men came to live in Aman they would be even more dissatisfied with mortality, since they would be surrounded by bliss and not be able to keep it. In a way, this was the problem with
Númenor, it was so nearly perfect that Men became dissatisfied because of their mortality. This was not observed in the Men of Middle-Earth, and would be even more painful in Aman. So Sirion's quote:

"And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast."

said simply that "your wishes are foolish, since even if they were granted you would be even more pained by your mortality", and has no physiological implications. So Frodo would live until the natural end of his life in bliss, and would be healed of his wounds.

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by Eriol
I think that in "For his whole life would last little more than one half-year", the word year actually refers to the Quenya yen (pl. yéni), which lasts for 144 years of the Sun. (Appendices of LotR). It seems Tolkien was thinking in Quenya when he wrote that... Is this a reasonable explanation?

Ahh, the Quenya yen. I had thought there was a unit of 144 years, which was why I originally started to post that quote. Problem was, I could only find the reference to the Valinorean year of ~10 Middle-earth years. Thanks for pointing that out Eriol- I agree with you (and my earlier quote): a mortal body living in the blessed realm would not age any quicker than it would in Middle-earth.

 

[Eledhwen]

Here are some quotes from Tolkien's letters on Mortals in the Undying Lands:

"Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. he would have enventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." Letter #246

"Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake- it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved....But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased: a trace of pride and personal possessiveness.

It is clear, of course, that the plan had actually been made and concerted (by Arwen, Gandalf, and others)... " Letter #246

"But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as a friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world." Letter #154

 

[lightingstrike]

Did you guys just say that Gandalf is a mortal? I find that hard to believe. Or, I guess I am wrong here. Are all wizards mortal. If they can only die by the hand of another, then they could live a pretty darn long life!