Mortals in the Undying Lands?

[Niniel]

No, all wizards are Maiar, so they are immortal spirits. Only their human-shaped bodies are mortal.

 

[Eledhwen]

There is no evidence that Wizards' bodies are any more mortal than those of the Elves. Gandalf had been around longer than all mortal lifespans at the time of The Great Years.

 

[Sirion]

What of the line comparing them to "moths in a light too strong and steadfast."? I find this to be a clear reference to the Silmaril-like burning away of life Luthien and Beren experienced. Also, how does wither sooner refer to being dissatisfied? I don't think you have explained your point clearly enough.

Originally posted by Eriol
I think that the "you would wither faster" sentence refers to a whole lifespan of a man, and is mainly psychological. This is possible if the "half-year" statement is really a translation from Quenya, so that the lifespan of men would be "little more than 72 years of the Sun". The Valar would be addressing the fact that if Men came to live in Aman they would be even more dissatisfied with mortality, since they would be surrounded by bliss and not be able to keep it. In a way, this was the problem with
Númenor, it was so nearly perfect that Men became dissatisfied because of their mortality. This was not observed in the Men of Middle-Earth, and would be even more painful in Aman. So Sirion's quote:



said simply that "your wishes are foolish, since even if they were granted you would be even more pained by your mortality", and has no physiological implications. So Frodo would live until the natural end of his life in bliss, and would be healed of his wounds.

 

[Eriol]

Sirion just asked:

Also, how does wither sooner refer to being dissatisfied? I don't think you have explained your point clearly enough.

Just for reference, I will repeat the quote under scrutiny:

"And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast."

Remember this was said by the Valar's emissaries (I think, did not check that) to the Númenóreans when they were first murmuring agains the Ban of the Valar (that said that they could not sail so far west that they lose sight of their own island). My point of view is that this is a warning from the emissaries that could be substituted by something like "Do not try to fight your own nature, and become deathless. For there is not any power in the world save that of Eru Himself that can do anything about it, and the Valar certainly can't help. And if you think that simply living at the same land with the Valar would do you any good, then you are quite mistaken. For in the company of the deathless your mortality would be even more bitter, and you would be dismayed and rebel against Death with even more anger "

The bold portion is roughly the same in meaning to the sentence "you would but wither and grow weary sooner, as moths in a light too strong and stadefast", as I take it. It is not a literal reading, but it is supported by (a) Aragil's HoME quote that Men would live "little more than a half-year" (assuming "year" is a translation from the Quenya yen, which accounts for 144 years of the Sun, so this quote would really mean "little more than 70 years of the Sun", i.e., normal (without the Valar's blessing) human lifespans. And (b) the fact that Frodo is sent there to heal his wounds. Now is we assume that the "withering" is a literal event, and that Frodo would only "grow weary sooner", his boon (of going to Valinor) makes no sense, as was pointed out earlier.

This is my interpretation of that quote. I'd be glad to discuss it further if you wish, Sirion.

 

[Sirion]

It had always been my impression that Frodo would go to Tol Eressea so he would be healed of his wounds and live a healthier and happier, if shorter, life. This is compared to a long life of reoccuring illness and suffering he would have had he stayed on ME.

 

[Turin]

Does Frodo live forever?

I have a question, when Frodo sails to valinor does he live there forever and what about Sam and Bilbo?

 

[Celebthôl]

no they all die, they just live in luxury for their last years

 

[Aragorn21]

no they all die, they just live in luxury for their last years

I learn new things everyday here!! I had no idea I thought they would live forever. Andyway does anyone know what the grey havens looked like?

 

[Niniel]

Check out this thread: thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?threadid=8945

 

[33Peregrin]

No, they don't live forever. I wish they did. They're mortals, and remember in the scouring of the Shire Saruman warned Frodo that he would not have a long life????????

 

[Ithrynluin]

Hey if they don't live forever, why does it say "Frodo lives" in the subway?

 

[Lantarion]

LMAO!

 

[Aragorn21]

LOL

And thanks alot for that thread link it really helps!

 

[Aulë]

In fact, some people say that Frodo would have had a shorter life in the Undying Lands than he would have in Middle Earth, although in a lot less pain.
It is said that by living in the Undying Lands, a mortals life force would be "burnt" away quicker.

 

[Beleg]

Frodo will live till the world is re-made. that's what i think.

 

[Turin]

Yeah I wish they didn't have to die. I thought that since he was a ring bearer he would live forevor in valinor.

 

[elfgirl]

I happen to agree. I mean, look at how long Bilbo lived. I mean, in the begining of the series, it was his eleventy-first birthday!!!

 

[Flame of Udûn]

That is because he had the Ring for upwards of fifty years, and it was sustaining his life. That is why Gollum lived for so long.

 

[Beowulf]

I think the professor was very clear in his letters that Frodo would not live forever

"Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time." Letter #246

"I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world." Letter #154

 

[balrog]

was it not said that Frodo had an elvish quality to him?

not that that would make him immortal!