💀Nazgul and the 9 Rings

[Mablung]

If the 9 rings of men were destroyed while the One Ring was still intact and all else was in place would the Nazgul still retain their power?

 

[gate7ole]

We don't know for certain, but my instinct says that the 9 rings were necessary for the Nazgul to maintain a link with the world of the living. Without this link, they would enter the world of shadow forever and wouldn't be able to communicate with the others (so bear swords, talk, do any harm). Of course, since the ring-lore hasn't been preserved, we can't know if Sauron had the ability to keep his servants with the living only with the Ruling Ring.

 

[HLGStrider]

Doesn't it say somewhere that Sauron holds the nine? Or am I just pulling that from thin air because I'm bored?

 

[Urambo Tauro]

I think you're right....

 

[Thorondor_]

Doesn't it say somewhere that Sauron holds the nine?

Yes, several times:

You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine

At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.

 

[Annaheru]

Yes, but what about Gandalf's words at the council of Elrond: "The Nine the Nazgul keep."?

I don't think the Nazgul could have endured being parted from their rings for a long time (just as everyone who encountered the One had trouble laying it aside). In that case it, Sauron's "holding" of the rings would be understood in a metaphysical sense, ie the rings (and by extension those individuals they had enslaved) were so bound to Sauron's will that they were totally bound to his command even when they were seperated from him.

Part of my thinking is based on the fact that Akallabeth mentions Sauron setting aside his Ring, but no others when he went to Numenor, so if he didn't have the nine then, and didn't have the nine when Gilgalad/Elendil fought him on the mountain, I don't see him retaining physical possession at any other time.

 

[Thorondor_]

Further proof:

I do not think they [the nazgul] could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

and again from UT:

They [the nazgul] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held

 

[Withywindle]

Part of my thinking is based on the fact that Akallabeth mentions Sauron setting aside his Ring, but no others when he went to Numenor, so if he didn't have the nine then, and didn't have the nine when Gilgalad/Elendil fought him on the mountain, I don't see him retaining physical possession at any other time.

I think we must assume that in the Second Age, as Sauron wore the One he didn´t need to hold the Nine as the One gave him absolute control. It was after his resurgence in the Third Age that he took posession of the Nine "The Nine he has gathered to himself" says Gandalf to Frodo and the use of the Present Perfect tense suggets it is relatively recent. Presumably, Sauron felt he needed to hold the Nine himself in order to ensure control over the Nazgul, until he should recover the One.

Clearly then, the Nazgul were primarily dependent on their Rings. The Master Ring allowed Sauron to impose his will on them, but it did not give them life or power. I think then that the Nazgul would have pretty well vanished if their Rings were destroyed - by that I mean become some evil phantom, but with no real power, and perhaps with time disappear altogether.

 

[Noldor_returned]

As further proof that the Nazgul hold their Rings (but are still under the dominion of Sauron), Frodo saw the Witch-king with his on when he was attacked at Weathertop. By the way, who were the men that received the Rings?

 

[Thorondor_]

Ok, moreover:

So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still.

Frodo saw the Witch-king with his on when he was attacked at Weathertop.

I didn't find that refference in the final paragraphs of A knife in the dark; perhaps you could give a quote?

 

[Noldor_returned]

I'm not good at finding quotes...takes me a while. Although I don't think it says it in a Knife in the Dark. It might be in the Appendices or UT, maybe even Sil, where the Ringwraiths keep their Rings.

And does anyone know which men are the wraiths?

 

[Wraithguard]

And does anyone know which men are the wraiths?

To my knowledge (which has deteriorated) the names of the nine kings are never given. Some beleive (I disagree) that the Third Age Gothmog is a Nazgûl but there isn't any information to back that up either.

 

[HLGStrider]

Unless you count "The Witch King of Angmar" to be a name, they simply don't have names credited to them by Tolkien. We know three are "Black Numenoreans."

 

[Thorondor_]

Only one of them is named, in UT:

Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger

And according to Akallabeth, only 3 Ringwraiths were numenoreans:

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race

 

[Wraithguard]

True. So we can at least Identify two of them: The Witch King and Khamûl. As for the others there was a fansite (I cannot remember which) that developed names for them and they stuck but nothing official.

 

[wizard2c]

As indicated in The Lord of the Rings and Philosophy:
"The Black Riders, the Narzul who wear the nine Rings given to the human race of men , have exerted their collective wills to force him "Frodo" to put on the Ring. So here we see that Frodo does choose to put on the Ring--unlike the accident at Bree--but his choice is not free choice; it is a result of compulsion, the psychological power of other ring-bearers on the One Ring."

 

[Noldor_returned]

Sort of. I think I get what you're saying. As for the Numenoreans, would they be one of those governor people of a section, or just anyone.
I think Gothmog being a wraith is a little insane, as he was killed and isn't a man.

 

[Thorondor_]

I think Gothmog being a wraith is a little insane, as he was killed and isn't a man.

There is a refference to "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" in The battle of the Pelennor Fields chapter.

 

[Noldor_returned]

Yes, but he isn't a Ringwraith, that's for sure.

 

[Withywindle]

I always took for granted "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" was a Nazgul. After all, Morgul is the City of the Ringwraiths, so it seems likely that second in command there after the Morgul King would be another wraith. Certainly, the command of the battle being given to a Uruk as portrayed in the film is to be completely disregarded.