💀Nazgul and the 9 Rings

[Annaheru]

Actually, I had always thought he was an orc- just because while the Witch King led the assault Tolkien constantly uses the phrase "but it was no brigand or orc-chieftain that led the assault . . .", and after his fall we see Gothmog (without any such line) send in the reserves to get slaughtered which seemed in keeping with orc tactics to me. It had always seemed like a significant contrast.

I had always imagined that the Nazgul were still flying around in the sky (except for the one that flew back to Mordor).

Considering that Shagrat was giving command of a castle, I don't think we can rule out an orc as lieutenant.

Really, we don't have information either way, neither option has anything in particular to endorse it, and neither has any damning evidence against it.

 

[Noldor_returned]

I have a feeling I read somewhere that the Witch-king was in command of the Battle of the Pelennor, but I could easily be wrong. I'll have to go looking for that quote.

 

[HLGStrider]

He was. . . then he died. . . then he wasn't.

 

[Wraithguard]

Gothmog - The Lieutenant of Minas Morgul and commander of Sauron's army during the Battle of the Pellenor Fields after the fall of the Lord fo the Nazgûl.
~TWFA-Z pg. 218

Besides, as we've already agreed upon, the second in command to the Witch King is Khamûl.

 

[Noldor_returned]

So we've identified three of the Nazgul- Witch-king, Khamul, Gothmog. There is also possibly 3 Numenoreans, which leaves three others.

 

[HLGStrider]

Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger

Besides, as we've already agreed upon, the second in command to the Witch King is Khamûl.

I don't think we have a consensus, though I feel pretty nuetral about what the heck Gothmog was. In my first read through he was just a big, bad dude with no lines so I didn't take the time to pull my mind away from the more interesting events to consider his heritage. The name never struck me as particularly "nazgully" though.

However, that said, I don't think the above quotes rule out that Gothmog was both the second in command of Morgul and a Nazgul. It does state that Khamul is the second Nazgul but it also states that he is in charge of Dol Guldur and so there would probably be a second lieutenant to look after Morgul itself when Witch King was elsewhere and Khamul was still busy up north. Now, whether or not this second was a Nazgul or not isn't stated and I don't think there is anyway to be sure.

So we've identified three of the Nazgul- Witch-king, Khamul, Gothmog. There is also possibly 3 Numenoreans, which leaves three others.

I thought I should point out that it is probable (in fact it might actually be stated somewhere) that one of the Numenoreans WAS the Witch King, so that still leaves four.

 

[Noldor_returned]

Fair enough, but I'm fairly sure that Khamul was second in command. I think I read it in UT.

 

[Thorondor_]

I agree with NR; beside the previous quote I gave concerning Khamul, he is called again "the Second Chief (black easterling)" in the notes to the Hunt for the ring, in refference to a rejected version.

 

[Noldor_returned]

As for those other 3 or four, could they possibly be Haradrim? After all, they were working for Sauron, and to make them help him, he might have given their king or chieftain and a few other popular people rings, and taken their life. Then he could have promised to return their guys back when he had control over Middle-Earth, and only if they help him? Then, being the deceiver he is, wipes them out too. Sounds plausible, doesn't it?

 

[Wraithguard]

We must not rule out the option of other Easterlings either. I do not believe that Gothmog was a Nazgûl but I'm not inconvincable. Let's try breaking down what we already know. The Witch King is Nùmenorian and Khamûl is an Easterling. We're not quite sure about Gothmog yet. What about the people of Eorl?

 

[Noldor_returned]

I doubt it. Although they may or may not have had dealings with Mordor, I don't think their time frame fits. Speaking of which, when were the 9 made and when were they handed out? I can't remember.

 

[Annaheru]

The Nine, the Seven and the Three were made by the elven smiths of Eregion (Celebrimbor made the 3, sort of what you'd expect from Feanor's grandson-- not exactly sure if the makers of the 7 and 9 are specifically stated).

After Sauron made the One, he claimed all the elvish rings because his knowledge had been instrumental in their creation. He fought a war, and destroyed Eregion, and laying hold on the 7 and 9. These he handed out throughout the rest of the 2nd age.


It's pure speculation but since he gave 3 ring to the Numenoreans (west) why not 3 to the east, and 3 to the south?

 

[Thorondor_]

Speaking of which, when were the 9 made and when were they handed out?

Cf The tale of Years, RotK, all the rings were made between 1500 and 1590.

In 1967 Eregion is taken by Sauron and as late as 2251, the nazgul appear; anywhere between these two years, the distribution of the rings could have occured (though rather sooner than later, seeing that the rings take a while to corrupt, and the nazgul were previously powerful warriors/sorcerrors).

 

[Wraithguard]

Good point Annaheru. There were nine rings and only three directions in which man dwelt. To the north were Dwarves and vile Elves followed by the Ered Engrin, leaving only 3 directions. So perhaps if we do throw Gothmog in as a Nazgûl we can assume him to be the highest Haradrim-wraith. Khamûl is the highest Easterling-wraith and the Witch King is the highest Nùmenorian-wraith so why not?

 

[Noldor_returned]

Wraithguard, you make a good point. That would leave (if my calculations are correct) 2 from each of these races. I think Sauron could have chosen anyone, and this would have affected less people. Although, if he wanted already strong or powerful people, why not go a military person high up? Or a tactician/advisor to the king of each region. This would also give him an advantage by knowing some of the secrets of each land. Does it say anywhere in HOME about a major Numenorean dissapearing at any time, or wouldn't it matter to them? They would most likely make up some story of them going crazy, and leaving, not thinking that they were working for Sauron.
However, doesn't someone (Aragorn or Gandalf) say in FotR that they were once kings? So maybe the rings were handed out over three generations, to each different king? And if Sauron asked the Haradrim (unlikely Numenoreans would say yes to him) and the Easterlings whether they wanted to be more powerful than their enemies, would they voluntarily take the Rings and use them to attack foes?

 

[HLGStrider]

The only sure place I remember the "great kings of men" line is the movie, I'm afraid, but I think it is in there.

We will have to assume that they were kings of "city state" type situations which may very well have existed in plenty in times of chaos.

 

[Wraithguard]

Correct. So possibly we have three great kings: Khamûl, Gothmog, and the Witch King, and six lords of some sort, two from each race.

Originally Men, three of them Black Nùmenorians,the Nazgûl were each given one of the Nine Rings by Sauron in the Second Age... ~TWFA-Z

So perhaps the three Nùmenorians had already been corrupted and were merely convinced to take the rings in the same manner as the other six.

 

[Noldor_returned]

Assuming they are Black Numenoreans, is it possible the Mouth of Sauron is descended from one of them? If, before they became a wraith, a female was brought to them, and they did their business, then it continued on etc? He may feel it in his bones that he must be of service. I think we should read the chapter in UT or the Sil, which goes into detail about the Nazgul, in case of any underlying clues. I'm not sure, but it may say something about each of their origins.

 

[HLGStrider]

It's possible, I suppose, but a bit unlikely. I do think it is probable they do have descendants running around because they were obviously men for awhile and powerful men who probably would have wanted some heirs, but having the mouth be one of such just doesn't feel like Tolkien to me.

 

[Sangahyando]

Are we told of the fate of Ar-Pharazon the Golden? Perhaps, although its a long shot, Ar-Pharazon was a Nazgul, possibly the Witch-King? I mean considering the largest assembly of Men for war was made by Ar-Pharazon, does that cross out the fact that Sauron the Deceiver, Gorthaur the Cruel may very well have chosen his 'greatest servant' perhaps being Ar-Pharazon because of his construction of the 'Great Armament'? The Akallabeth doesn't tell us of the fate of Ar-Pharazon himself for Sauron may have saved him.



Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper