💀Nazgul incompotent?

[Harad]

Maybe..

But werent each of the Nazgul powerful kings of Men. Shirley even the least of these shouldnt be hesitant to seize the Ring from one or two hobbits.

Didnt his superiors trust him to return the Ring to them? Maybe Evil doesnt have much initiative.

 

[HLGStrider]

Would you trust a dark rider??? Or are you one??

You can join dark rider's annoymous (sorry, can't spell...)
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[Úlairi]

How dare you!

How dare you say that I suck, well I don't. Before I entered this forum I did some extensive search on the Ulairi (Nazgul) and I believe I can answer this one. The Nazgul were not incompetent. If you have read UT it says that the Nazgul were tricked by Saruman, who claimed to be an ally of Sauron. Saruman said he did not know where the Shire was. That was not true, Saruman bought his weed from there! This mislead the Morgul-lord. It also says that when the nine were together they were unbeatable. They broke down Gondors barrier to Eriador and they were so quick they managed to nearly catch Frodo at the Buckleberry Ferry. They rode like the wind. Five of them were defeated on Weathertop simply because the Morgul-lord wasn't there and they all weren't together. Remember the prophecy of the Lord of the Nazgul that no man i.e. Aragorn could kill the Morgul-lord!!!

 

[Harad]

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race. And when the Úlairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea

This quote from the Sil is rather odd. Its either a typo or it says that "three" of the Ulairi were great lords. But 3 or 9, to fall back on the idea that 1 or 5 of these wraiths were no match for either a couple of hobbits or a couple of hobbits and one man with some torches, really makes you wonder about their power.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Harad
This quote from the Sil is rather odd. Its either a typo or it says that "three" of the Ulairi were great lords. But 3 or 9, to fall back on the idea that 1 or 5 of these wraiths were no match for either a couple of hobbits or a couple of hobbits and one man with some torches, really makes you wonder about their power.

I miss your point Harad. It says that three were great lords of the Numenorean race. We can assume the other 6 were great lords of the races of Harad, Rhun and Khand. Khamul, Lt. of the Nazgul, was called Khamul the Easterling and his name would imply that he was not Numenorean. I'm sure that the Witch-king probably was Numenorean but we'll never know for sure.

Whatever your point, I am in agreement that, in retrospect, they seem pretty wimpy while hunting the Hobbits and then turn nearly invincible during the battle of Minas Tirith. If they had the "black breath" in Gondor and Mordor, you would think that they had it while cruising in the Shire.

 

[Greenwood]

If they had the "black breath" in Gondor and Mordor, you would think that they had it while cruising in the Shire.

They had the Black Breath at Bree. At the Prancing Pony, in the chapter "Strider" when Merry is reporting his encounter outside the inn with strange figures, he reports passing out and he says he does not know what came over him. Strider says: "I do. The Black Breath."

 

[Grond]

So the explanation being that it gets stronger as the Nazgul get closer to Mordor? The black breath is not used in the Shire. It is used in Bree to simply incapacitate a Hobbit, but in the battle of Gondor it is a weapon of death? It doesn't appear that the "black breath" is either logically explained or logically used.

 

[Greenwood]

I take no position on the logic/illogic of the Black Breath and its potency in various parts of the LOTR. I merely point out that the Black Breath is mentioned in the Bree chapter. Perhaps the Nazgul can control the strength of the Black Breath (like pulling a punch). The goal in Bree was to capture a hobbit, in Gondor it was to kill. Personally, I always found the Nazgul to be pretty fearsome. But if Tolkien makes them all knowing and invincible the story ends before you ever leave Hobbiton!

 

[HLGStrider]

THEY SCARED ME!!!

When reading through the books a second time at 14, I was so scared I could feel them creeping up on me when I was alone in the house playing minesweeper and thinking about them... creepy creepy creepy

 

[Minas]

I had always imagined that before their Horses got drown at Rivendell Ford the Nazgul were trying to go quietly, gathering info and if possible plucking the hobbit for their master.
After they were able to ride their winged beasts ME was openly gearing for war and all cards were available to be played.

 

[HLGStrider]

I've thought of that too... They weren't preparing to cause war. They were undercover...

 

[Úlairi]

That is correct! Sauron wanted the Nazgul (Ulairi) to be undercover, in fact, when the Nazgul first looked for the ring it says in UT:

'The Lord of Morgul therefore led his companions over Anduin, unclad and unmounted, and invisible to eyes, and yet a terror to all living things that they passed near.'

Well, I hope that explains something!

 

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Ulairi
That is correct! Sauron wanted the Nazgul (Ulairi) to be undercover, in fact, when the Nazgul first looked for the ring it says in UT:



Well, I hope that explains something!

But they weren't so undercover when they reached the Shire. One rode right up and talked to the Gaffer; same with Maggot. And at Bree, they were obviously talking to some of the more shady locals.

 

[Bill the Pony]

Two interesting quotes form Unfinished Tales (in a different version of the story Ulairi quotes from)
Christopher Tolkien chose these as 'other versions', so he seems to have decided that these are not his father's final thoughts.

At length therefore he resolved to use the Ringwraiths. He had been reluctant to do so, until he knew precisely where the Ring was, for several reasons. They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master, But they had disadvantages, until open war began (for which Sauron was not yet ready). All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.

Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight

Conclusion: everybody is right: Nazgul are competent at night and incompetent by day?

 

[Harad]

Well then...

Its a comedy of errors on both sides. Sauron sends 9 hunters, 8 of whom:

were apt to stray when alone by daylight

At least most of the chase took place after the autumnal equinox.

 

[HLGStrider]

I wonder what he should've sent??? What would've been better or scarier?

A bunch of orcs? Too obvious. Too bumbling. Not nearly trustworthy enough...

Some human slave? Again not nearly trustworthy enough...

I can see Sauron getting frustrated. "I can't trust anybody. I'll just have to go do it myself..."

I think they were good but incredibly limited. After all, poor Sauron is forced to deal with amatuers in the cause of all great evil...

 

[Úlairi]

I believe that the Nazgul were the perfect choice, things would have been different if Sauron had done it himself, it would be inevitable, Sauron would have gotten the ring in no time and hence the end of the book. Harad's point of the autumnal equinox was very good, days were shorter and nights were longer (hmmmm, I wonder if Sauron ever took that into account!). One point though is, the Nazgul rode those bird-like creatures during the day, yet they did not really stray, now, if stray means to "stray in mind" than they would have crashed their steeds into a tree, or rode there horses off a cliff (ok, perhaps not!) but if they strayed, they didn't very much, for they always showed up at pivotal times in the book!

 

[Úlairi]

In answer to your question HLGStrider, the Nazgul were probably better because they were trustworthy (because the had no will of their own!) Sauron also probably knew of the existence of Gandalf and that he would have something to do with the Ring, so he needed servants powerful enough to contend with him! Does that answer your question?

 

[HLGStrider]

another old jewel back from the dead. ..

 

[Thuringwethil]

Some incoherent and vague observations.. (I'm tired and my mind is absent, sorry about that.)

Ulairi incompetent? Hardly.. But limited. Nazguls are not flesh and blood, they're ghosts and ghosts have "different rules".

Shire encounters: the first happens at afternoon. Nazgul's powers are severely diminished during daylight, blurring their senses etc. Similar to human searching someone in dark.

Second encounter takes place at night, and nazgul seems more determined. However, he is interrupted by the elves. A bunch of high elves, to be exact. A lone wraith is no match to them. Yes, that carefree lot having their picnic is surely capable to defend themselves. And there is the song about Elbereth, wich seems to have an "exorcistic" effect.

Weathertop: Amon Sul is sort of "homefield" for Aragorn, a former major fortress of his (lost) kingdom. Witch-King wrecked it yes, but was also driven away later. "Homefield" gives an obvious psychological edge, plus in Tolkien's world also a "magical" one. Then Aragorn knows how to fight wraiths (NOT like in movie, btw, imo, etc), and he has "revenge bonus" to tone down his fear (history of Arnor, plus dead rangers at ford of Sarn). Nazguls can be harmed by fire, not destroyed but stripped. Hobbits wield "wraith-slaying" knives. Elbereth is called upon. None of these things alone propably wouldn't been enough, but together they make uncomfortable battlefield for nazguls. And they already managed to inflict a wound that no one in history has survived. Nazguls are not berzerkers, they have much sense of self-preservation. In their place I would've done the same thing; retreat, wait, and strike again later.

About undercover; they were undercover up north. They were "disguised as riders in black", and most people thought they were living men, only foreign travellers. In reality they were undead lords and sorcerors. When a ghost succesfully pretends to be alive, that's undercover for me.

Nazguls aren't called the Nine for nothing. When there's let's say five of them present, there is just five of them. But when they gather all under their Captain, they are 'The Nine', much more than a sum of their numbers. They pulled a draw against Gandalf at Weathertop. Through that night the wizard was in deep.. trouble. Sunrise propably saved him. And his effort of drawing some of wraiths away from Weathertop propably saved hobbits&Aragorn. And maybe the battle weared the nazguls down too.

So if one knows what to do with a nazgul, it's possible to fight them (Aragorn, Gandalf). But if one takes them as another big bad cronie, one's gonna end as a cold corpse in the dark.. Earnur and even Boromir (the older one) made this mistake; they didn't know what their foe was, and fell. (And Earnur even after he was warned several times. Darwin award coming.. )

Much more to say but not enough brains to write it.. Hope I had a point there somewhere; good luck finding it.