Questions; Concerning 🧌Orcs and their Origins

[Edhel-dûr]

But i think that we must have in acount that the silmarillion is the elvish tradition transmited by the numenoreans.I want to say that it gets more into the fantastic or mythological legends and that´s why its fundaments are short.

I hope you´ll understand me XD.

Greetings.

 

[ApplCobbler]

Of Orcs and Elves

If Orcs are elves that listened to Morgoth and followed him, and later became Orcs...

Are Orcs immortal??

 

[YayGollum]

I always liked to think so, but I have no real idea. I thought that maybe that was how the Great Goblin from The Hobbit got to be in charge, having lived for a really long time, I guess. I don't know. It wouldn't be fair for the poor orcs to die soon. *sniff* oh well. Maybe they died of old age because Morgoth couldn't make them as good as elves. Maybe somebody smart will come along.

 

[TheFool]

I think Orcs would be similar to 'men' in that their 'longevity' would become diluted - probably happened a lot quicker with orcs though due to the use of non-too-pure breeding stock!

Maybe the first few generations of orcs were immortal, or had really long life spans?

 

[Ceorl]

In LoTR Shagrat and Gorbag had a long conversation during which they mentioned 'the good old days' since there is no other eplanation for it was assume they must have been talking about the second age when Sauron had almost supreme power over ME. This proves almost beyond doubt that orcs are indeed immortal or at least have the gift of longevity.

This very concept however brings up a new idea; In one of his letters Tolkien states that Elves when they die receive a summons from Mandos, they can however refuse that summons. Doing this though would almost destroy any strength they have to refuse a similar call from Melkor. This much we know for certain, however: If orcs are immortal then we assume that this is where they go but is Morgoth able to 'reincarnate' the dead orcs like the Valar can with Elves? This would explain how orcs are able to replenish their numbers so quickly.

 

[Anamatar IV]

maybe the 1st orcs who were straight from elves were immortal but when the orcs bred and became less and less elves they became die...able.

 

[TheFool]

Is it likely that orcs could actually survive for very long periods of time given the places they live/hang out in? Does anyone know of any main 'evil' characters who were actually orcs?

 

[Gil-Galad]

With the time Melkor loses his power,the greater evil he is the less powerful Valar he becomes.The same is with Sauron.
I suppose that would be the same and for orcs.Because of their lives,their evil nature,they loses their strenght with the years.I doubt they're immortal.I suppose they can live a long time but they have lost the opportunity to live forever,because of their evil hearts and souls.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

I believe that the orcs are completely immortal. Why would they lose their long life? Sauron and Melkor were immortal, but their evil did not make them lose their immortality - it only gave them less strength. Yes, I know that Maia, and Valar are different than orcs, but I think that the same can apply to any creature.

I really like the idea that the orcs, since they were elves once, are able to refuse the summons of Mandos and be "reincarnated" by Melkor. Thanks for sharing, Ceorl!

 

[Ceorl]

Since when does being evil lose you your immortality?

It is an inherent part of; you cannot slow become mortal because you are evil.

What I think you are referring to is Morgoth Bauglir's loss of power. This was due to him spreading it amongst his servants and tools. He drained his power to send out lies and malice among his foes.

An orc would not lose immortality because it is evil. (If I am wrong and you have proof of this happening then please tell me so I can slap myself silly)

It is my belief also that orcs are immortal.

 

[TheFool]

I suppose the orcs could be immortal, yes. It's just that their life expectancy is a LOT less than your average elf.... just look what they did to 'poor old Ufthak' in Shelob's Lair (that bit cracks me up every time! )

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Are you refering to me, Ceorl? If I'm not mistaken what I tried to say in my post was exactly what you said but just not in nearly as good of words.... But anyway, I'm just a wee bit confused as to if you were meaning me. Oh well!

 

[Ceorl]

No, No Narya I was meaning Gil, sorry. He reffered to Morgoth and Sauron losing power.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Oh, ok! Just checking!

 

[ApplCobbler]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Oh, ok! Just checking!

Hmmm, did you notice he called you "Narya" and not "Nenya"?

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yes, I noticed, but I knew who he meant and so didn't push it. As far as I know it could have been a mistake or anything. He said what he meant, and I didn't see any reason to point that out - the communication was there.

 

[Ceorl]

Lol

I sincerely apologise for that mistake Nenya.

No offense intended really, although Narya was the more powerful....

just joking.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

No offense intended really, although Narya was the more powerful....

No offense taken! Narya? What! More Powerful?