The mirror of 🧝Galadriel

[Rúmil]

The main problem I see with 'machines' is that it is often possible to take a very good one and put it to a very evil use (the various rings, the Palantirs, etc.)

My thought exactly.

The Palantíri, IMO, were not "machines" in origin; they were more of a work of art. (they were devised by Fëanor, and there was little use for seven Palantíri in Aman) The Númenoreans strated using them as Machines, and the potential evil that caused was set to work at the end of the Third Age.

(this my personal opinion, and it is conjectural and debatable)

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Rúmil
My thought exactly.

The Palantíri, IMO, were not "machines" in origin; they were more of a work of art. (they were devised by Fëanor, and there was little use for seven Palantíri in Aman) The Númenoreans strated using them as Machines, and the potential evil that caused was set to work at the end of the Third Age.

(this my personal opinion, and it is conjectural and debatable)

My friend, IMHO, I think that you provide for too much difference between "machine" and "art"...

I will, for example, provide a modern example: my Kawasaki Ninja ZX-9R motorcycle...

Sure, this motorcycle is a 'machine'... but you could also say there is no pressing -need- for this 'machine' when there are cars... and you would only be correct to note that this motorcycle is not JUST a 'machine' -- it is 'art' as well. And not just artistic in it's appearance, but art in motion! The Ninja ZX-9R (and it's equivalent competition from Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha) is a -machine- that allows one to experience the -art of speed-.

Good machines incorporate art to the very highest feasible degree, both in terms of aesthetic quality, and in terms of actual performance...as such, if I put my engineering hat on (thus disregarding the possible consequences of using the machine for 'evil' and just regarding it from a purely functional perspective), I would identify a Palantir as a 'good machine'... a good combination of art and function.

But I suspect that your use of the word 'machine' somehow implies that it is bad, or at least not good?

 

[Rúmil]

Yes. I use the word "machine" to describe a brutal, crude and vulgar artefact made and used for exclusively materialistic puposes, by stupid, selfish, and tasteless users. No offence meant to your Kawasaki Ninja ZX-9R

I admit this is not the usual definition, but I suspect this is what Tolkien often meant by the word.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Rúmil
Yes. I use the word "machine" to describe a brutal, crude and vulgar artefact made and used for exclusively materialistic puposes, by stupid, selfish, and tasteless users. No offence meant to your Kawasaki Ninja ZX-9R

I admit this is not the usual definition, but I suspect this is what Tolkien often meant by the word.

Heheh, my bike couldn't possibly take offense, because the words brutal, crude, vulgar don't even exist within a ten-foot sphere of my Kawasaki, which is also used mainly to provide joy (and, I'll admit, to commute to work ) to myself. My own personal levels of stupidity, selfishness, and taste are, of course, quite subjective, so I can't comment.

I just recall Tolkien saying this:

...and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents-

And so I consider things like the Three Rings to be 'Machines' (because they are -external devices- instead of developments of inherent inner powers or talents)...

But anyhow,

 

[Camille]

Rúmil, you said:
"The "Machine" in Tolkien's frame of mind, is an evil word. Only Evil characters use Machines"
"The Palantíri, IMO, were not "machines" in origin; they were more of a work of art"
"Yes. I use the word "machine" to describe a brutal, crude and vulgar artefact made and used for exclusively materialistic puposes, by stupid, selfish, and tasteless users. No offence meant to your Kawasaki Ninja ZX-9R
I admit this is not the usual definition, but I suspect this is what Tolkien often meant by the word."

I am sorry you are mistaken, It is very clear Tolkien uses Machine not only to the devices of the Enemy but also to the Elven artefact, the difference my friend is that the first ones are used or created to control, to dominate, the latter is to preserve or in Tolkien's words:
"Their magic is art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product and vision in unflawed correspondence)"
I suggest you to read the Tolkien's letters (and I suggest to everyone it is really good to know a little of what Tolkien had in mind when he was at work), specially letters: 131 and 155
I am sorry I can not quote them but my copy is not in English and I am afraid I can only offer a very bad translation. The letter 131 I have quoted already.
In the other one (155) Tolkien talks about the magic and its motives: No "magic" is good or evil but the porpouse could be or the use you make of this "magic". He says that Galadriel and Gandalf use "magic", modern mogic and the results produce real effects on real world.

and when you said: "But anyway, this is out of place: we must distinguish "conjuring" magic, which these quotes are about, magic that is meant to produce a lasting and visible artefact, and "telepathy""

I do not think it is out of place because helps to prove the theory of the mirror as an artefact: Magic=Machine=Artefact=Mirror of Galadriel

 

[Rúmil]

I thought I had proven the Mirror was not an artefact, and needed Galadriel to power it up. And I have read Toklien's Letters and studied them very closely. On Machines, for instance:

Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its final inconclusive chapter – leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and only one thing triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be enormously more powerful. What's their next move? ....

letter #96.

A clear distinction is made between Machines, i.e. artefacts designed for materialistic use, and works of Art.

In the same letter you quote:

But at Eregion great work began – and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery.

and in letter #155

Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use.

The Rings were Machines in that alltough they were created with the intent of preserving good and healing bad, there was an unwholesome side to the problem: they wanted some sort of power over nature. Machine, in this case, is a bad word.

I suggest you also read this thread for more on the subject.

 

[Lantarion]

That first quote is like something straight from the Matrix, seriously.
But I think, Camille, that the words 'Elven' and 'machine' cannot be linked in a sentence, as the Elves shunned the use of mechanized apparatus and tended to bend more to the side of Magic, considered an 'Art'.

 

[Camille]

That first quote is like something straight from the Matrix, seriously.

Very well Mr. Anderson...

" ...and so to the Machine (or Magic)." seams very clear Machine or magic.

"Their magic is art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product and vision in unflawed correspondence)",
that is the difference, the mirror is magic but good magic. and for the rings:

"The Rings were Machines in that alltough they were created with the intent of preserving good and healing bad, there was an unwholesome side to the problem: they wanted some sort of power over nature. Machine, in this case, is a bad word."
The rings (the elven rings) were not bad magic, and they do not wanted power over nature they just wanted to heal, to preserve, there was no bad thoughts in there.

and Rumil thanks for the suggestion I have already read the thread very interesting but I do not think you have proved that the mirror needed Galadriel to power it up, I must confess that was my original thought but I change my mind when Elu thingol posted and I have not find any evindence (in the books or in your posts) to prove it.

 

[Rúmil]

Remeber, Galadriel breathed on the Mirror before she presnted it to Frodo and Sam. She stood by them for the duration. She counselled them while they were using it. (I posted the exact quotes further up) I think this is evidence enough in favour of the "Galadriel-behind-it-theory). If you read the end of my post, it says the Rings were called Machines because they had an ominous side to them. May I requote my last post from Tolkien's letter:

But at Eregion great work began – and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery.

PS: what happened to the post I had posted just after Pontifex's reply? Was it "moderated" just for being pointless or did I actually fail to press the "Submit" button (I wouldn't put that past myself).

 

[Ithrynluin]

Camille,if the mirror is indeed more than just a basin of water and doesn't need the power of Galadriel to function,then where did the mirror come from? Just wondering.

 

[Elu Thingol]

I think the key here to showing that the mirror was indeed more than just a basin of water, is the fact that Galadriel does not have complete control over the mirror.

But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold.

How can the mirror show unbidden images if it is completely dependent on Galadriel

Also, we know that Galadriel does not project the images

'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,'

She says she can command the mirror to reveal things. If she indeed she was projecting images would not she say, many things I can show through the mirror??? No! Instead she commands the mirror to show certain things, which proves she was not projecting images.

As you should be able to see by now THE MIRROR IS MORE THAN JUST A BASIN OF WATER!!!!!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you

APPLAUSE

 

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Elu Thingol
She says she can command the mirror to reveal things

That's right, she can. But does that mean she would?

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Lantarion
That first quote is like something straight from the Matrix, seriously.
But I think, Camille, that the words 'Elven' and 'machine' cannot be linked in a sentence, as the Elves shunned the use of mechanized apparatus and tended to bend more to the side of Magic, considered an 'Art'.

You seem to be assuming that there is a quantitative (rather than QUALITATIVE) difference between magic and machine in Tolkien's world -- which, of course, there is not.

The entire concept of 'magic' as we would commonly think of it is simply foreign to Tolkien's world.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Originally posted by Lantarion
That's right, she can. But does that mean she would?

Excuse me but I got nothing out of what you just said. I understand the meaning but see no relevance to the point.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

I have traced this discussion and here what I think.
First of all, Ithrynluin, it is NOT an unusual question! I have been thinking a lot myself about Galadriel's mirror, about the Palantiri and the way they function...
I think that in the case of the "mirror" - it is the water that is of some clue, perhaps. Why? Well, remember that it is NOT the first time Frodo looks into "magic waters"! The first time was outside Moria, when Gimly shows him that lake the water of which did NOT reflect the clear blue sky above, nor their own reflection, but a dark, deep sky with millions of beautiful stars... maybe the sky the Firstborn saw when they awoke, maybe the skies before the creation of the Sun and Moon (as explained in Silmarillion)...
So, there is some special attitude to water that Tolkien shows by these "magic" water basins. What - I can not say, as I do not have all those information sources available to you! Maybe you'll find smth and comment on this.
And I too think that Galadriel's mirror is some sort of a screen to reflect what she sees in the minds of the people standing in front of her. She has been described quite well as an enchantress and possessing "magic" to read into peoples' minds. And remember the last meeting of Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf (the White) and Elrond? I am so sorry I don't have the English text, so I could have been able to quote, but it was about all of them having a very long and lively conversation but not a single sound was heard as they were communicating through their minds, not using the normal sound-speech! So, Galadriel could well use any other surface for that "screen" of thoughts. Why WATER then? I have already stated my p.o.v.
Now, I'll be waiting for yours!

And if you would find it of any interest, LET'S SPEAK ABOUT THE PALANTIRI, as well.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Lhunithiliel
And I too think that Galadriel's mirror is some sort of a screen to reflect what she sees in the minds of the people standing in front of her.

Ahh and yet another who has not seen the light. I hate pointing out where your wrong but here it is. The mirror is not a screen to reflect what Galadriel sees in the minds of others but it is this...

For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be.

No where does it say it shows things in the minds of other people. Where did you come up with that?

 

[Ceorl]

I must agree with Rumil on most points, the mirror is definitely 'powered' by Galadriel. I believe however that she uses the ring to achieve the 'enchantment' of the mirror.

If you go to examples all the 'art' of the Elves is in the making of items (or the remaking; Anduril). never are they able to enchant already made items( not that I noticed anyway). The 'powers' of the Elves (mental, telepathy, Glorfindels showing of power at ford) are all alot more subtle. So I dont think that Galadriel enchanted the mirror with her own powers but with the power of the ring, which is a 'machine' in the Tolkien sense. I do not believe that the basin itself is an artifact. Note that when she uses it Galadriel refills it, and breaths on it. Also as others already pointed out I do not believe that her bearing the ring of Water and the mirror being a basin of water is a coincidence.

The mirrors visions are definitely not commanded by Galadriel(not the random ones anyway) although she is linked to the mirror and can see what the mirror is showing. One of the qualities given by the 'enchantment' is being able to tell what visions would interest you. Note that not all the visions are true. The visions are completely random(apart that they are linke to the viewer) as they are not always true.

 

[Elu Thingol]

These are all topics which have been discussed before please read the whole thread

Thank You

 

[Eol]

The Mirror

I think maybe the ring might have something to do with the medium. The ring of water was the most powerful of the three. They say that Elrond's ring of air allowed the stars to shine most brightly upon his house for example. And the ring of fire helps fire peoples hearts to do great deeds, etc.

However I don't think the mirror was Galadriel-powered. I think she placed an enchantment upon the water. Then anyone who would look in the water could see visions, or ask specific questions. I think the reason you mustn't touch the water is you would break the spell.

Now she could command the mirror to display what was asked or the individual could control it. But the important point here is that she couldn't see what the observer sees. She makes this clear when she tells Frodo after he sees the eye that she also saw his last vision because it is in her mind as well. She didn't see the other visions or Sam's vision. If it were truly Galadriel-powered she would know.

She saw the eye because she too is a ring-bearer. Sauron was striving to discover the 3 rings as well, but as she says, the way is still shut (until he reclaims the ruling ring). However, she could not hide her ring from Frodo, who holds the main ring.

Eol

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I think that in the case of the "mirror" - it is the water that is of some clue, perhaps. Why? Well, remember that it is NOT the first time Frodo looks into "magic waters"! The first time was outside Moria, when Gimly shows him that lake the water of which did NOT reflect the clear blue sky above, nor their own reflection, but a dark, deep sky with millions of beautiful stars... maybe the sky the Firstborn saw when they awoke, maybe the skies before the creation of the Sun and Moon (as explained in Silmarillion)...
And I too think that Galadriel's mirror is some sort of a screen to reflect what she sees in the minds of the people standing in front of her. She has been described quite well as an enchantress and possessing "magic" to read into peoples' minds. And remember the last meeting of Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf (the White) and Elrond? I am so sorry I don't have the English text, so I could have been able to quote, but it was about all of them having a very long and lively conversation but not a single sound was heard as they were communicating through their minds, not using the normal sound-speech! So, Galadriel could well use any other surface for that "screen" of thoughts. Why WATER then? I have already stated my p.o.v.

Wow,Lhun,those are some marvellous thoughts and observations! I think the mirror has more to do with Galadriel's innate powers than anything else (Nenya would come in next).
That's a great point about the "silent" conversation.